Volume?

[Budo]

Why is it that when I mixdown a track in Sonar (3 PE) and transfer it to a CD or mp3 format the volume is too low?

 

[jkokura]

Volume low compared to what? Like you can't hear it at all, or like low compared to a Green Day CD?

What you've created is a pre-master. Part of the Mastering process, along with EQ and compression, is to maximize your track - make it louder. If that's what the problem is, take a look at picking up some mastering programs - Wavelab or T-racks...or take it to a studio and have them master it. There are also Analog methods of mastering, but now we're talking about very complicated and expensive methods....

Jacob

 

[Farview]

The problem also happens when you are listening on a different playback chain. In Sonar, you don't have any perspective as to how loud it is. When you burn a CD and take it out to your car, you can see how much quieter it is compared to commercial CDs. This is a good thing, that means you are not clipping the shit out of your mix. Mastering, as said above, is a completely separate process. That will bring the mixes up to a good volume.
The sad part is, the insanely high volume of commercial CDs is ruining the sound of music. You mixes are probably about the volume they should be at, but you will have to squash the shit out of them to get them as loud as everyone elses stuff.

 

[The Green Hornet]

Yo Bud-O:

Since all recording platforms have "similarities," maybe I can help you.

I used to have that problem of getting things "loud" enough until I started playing with the "DYNAMIC/COMPRESSOR" on my Yam 2816.

First, I can boost up any track, like the vocal by raising the output gain.

Second, and this really helps, I can apply the boost to the stereo master slider and that is plenty.

After I balance and set the sliders on, say, four tracks, I then go to the vocal track {s} and boost it until it sounds all right in the monitors.

Then, I boost the stereo master slider which outputs all the tracks until it sounds all right to me.

With my SIAB, I can listen to the stereo track before I burn it. If it sounds too loud or not balanced, I can erase it and do it again before burning the CD.

Maybe some of these steps will apply to your set up? Hope this helps.

Green Hornet
PS Jay-the-rock is right about today's CDs being too loud.

 

[Farview]

Green hornets advise will work, as long as you watch the meters. Don't clip the mix, there is nothing you can do to fix it once that happens.

 

[dgatwood]

Green hornets advise will work, as long as you watch the meters. Don't clip the mix, there is nothing you can do to fix it once that happens.

Well, there are things you can sometimes do, but you almost certainly don't want to try any of them.... My favorite, for solo instruments or voices, is wave shape reconstruction by relying on the natural periodicity of the sound.

Like I said. You don't want to know.

 

[Budo]

Thanks Lads!

Think I need to invest in some mastering software.

 

[sixways]

The sad part is, the insanely high volume of commercial CDs is ruining the sound of music. You mixes are probably about the volume they should be at, but you will have to squash the shit out of them to get them as loud as everyone elses stuff.

Not in anyway trying to be argumentative, I'm just looking for some clarification on this statement. How exactly has the "insanely high volume of commericial CD's ruining the sound of music"? I've heard this before...various engineers talking about today's music being too compressed. Could someone enlighten me on what too compressed would be?

Again, I SWEAR I am not being argumentative! I just want to make the best mixes I possibly can.

Thanks,
6

 

[Farview]

One of the selling points of digital audio is the extended dynamic range that it provides. Tape and vinyl have a much smaller dynamic range, so this is a big improvement. So, what do we do with it? We squash the signal until it has an average of 8db of dynamic range.

I'm sure you have noticed the difference between what music sounds like on a CD vs. the radio. The radio smooshes it until it is just a 2 dimensional mess. The difference between the mix and the mastered version of most commercial CDs is about the same difference. You will also hear a drastic degredation if you have an old (pre 1994) CD and compare it to a 'remastered' version of the same CD.

When everything started being done on computers, we stopped worrying about line levels, gain staging, etc... and now that we could see how much headroom we had, we found creative ways of filling it up. The fact that more of this work has been taken over by people who were not electrical engineers and who were not trained and don't understand the electrical standards that all of this gear is based on.

 

[jkokura]

One of the selling points of digital audio is the extended dynamic range that it provides. Tape and vinyl have a much smaller dynamic range, so this is a big improvement. So, what do we do with it? We squash the signal until it has an average of 8db of dynamic range.

But can't this be a positive thing as well? Isn't the potential for making our mixes more even or level give us a better sound? I think my mastered mixes sound waaaay better than my pre-masters. And that's not just because it's been 'mastered' so it 'must' be better...it actually does sound better...

I'm not trying to argue with you. All good things can get out of hand if applied to heavily, I just don't think it's all that bad of a thing.

Jacob

 

[Farview]

If getting a better sound were the issue, you could still do all that limiting and compression while still keeping the RMS level at 0dbVU (line level). They don't because the goal is to have the loudest CD, not the best sounding.

Better is subjective. If you a/b 2 different mixes, the loudest one will seem 'better' 90% of the time.
Take one of your mixes, master it. Take another copy and do all the EQ but not the limiting that you did to the first one. Find a way to a/b them so that they are at the same volume (you will have to find a way to turn down the loud one)

 

[noisewreck]

Think I need to invest in some mastering software.

Hey guys, how long do you think it will take for Propellerheads to add "Master" button next to "Mixdown"?

 

[sixways]

If getting a better sound were the issue, you could still do all that limiting and compression while still keeping the RMS level at 0dbVU (line level). They don't because the goal is to have the loudest CD, not the best sounding.

Better is subjective. If you a/b 2 different mixes, the loudest one will seem 'better' 90% of the time.
Take one of your mixes, master it. Take another copy and do all the EQ but not the limiting that you did to the first one. QUOTE]


Wouldn't going over 0db be clipping? Is the problem the limiting or the compression? Are we talking about limiting/compressing individual tracks or the 2 track mixdown?

6

 

[Farview]

Don't confuse 0dbVU (analog) with 0dbfs (digital)
0dbfs = -12dbVU = line level = the level that all your equipment (recording and playback) was designed to run.
That extra 12db was designed to be headroom, now everyone is filling that up as much as possible. This pushes your playback systems beyond thier sweet spot.

The compression and limiting that I'm talking about is at the stereo mix level.

 

[sixways]

Don't confuse 0dbVU (analog) with 0dbfs (digital)
0dbfs = -12dbVU = line level = the level that all your equipment (recording and playback) was designed to run.
That extra 12db was designed to be headroom, now everyone is filling that up as much as possible. This pushes your playback systems beyond thier sweet spot.

The compression and limiting that I'm talking about is at the stereo mix level.

Got cha big daddy! You learn something everyday.

6

 

[Massive Master]

Go go go Sillyhat!

 

[Farview]

Where there's a Jayrock, there's a way. Hi John.

There are other reasons why the volume wars are bad, the biggest one after what I had mentioned is the fact that any given mix only wants to be so loud. When the mastering engineer is forced to push it beyond that point just so it can compete with all the other oversaturated puke on the market he is, by definition, compromising the mix for the sake of volume. It makes you wonder why there is a volume control on everyones stereo.

 

[sixways]

Could you give an example of a pro CD that has these undesirable qualities? Again, just as a reference for me for what not to do.

6

 

[noisewreck]

^^^ Pretty much any pop, rock, country... anything mainstream record that's been put out the last several years.

 

[Massive Master]

These days? It's almost hard *not* to find one that's overcompressed and / or limited well beyond where it wants to be. At least in pop/rock/metal. And to some extent, I have to admit, much of of the work I've done in the last several years is louder than I would've wanted it. The client almost always wants it pushed slightly beyond the limit.

It's like Jayrock says - You'd think people didn't have volume controls. So much of what's out there would sound *SO* much better if it was even a little less squashed...