Volume of the final mix

[rickspringfield]

My drummer and I have been recording our band to make some nice demos- we're a pop/rock outfit, sort of like Superdrag or The Sounds or something like that. Anyways, we use an MBox Audio interface into a Windows XP PC running Pro Tools LE. The mixer we use is a Behringer Europower, the 800w one, and also a fairly cheap Alesis compressor. We've recorded all our parts, and I've done the best job mixing that I can (being mostly a "noob"), and I'm satisfied with how it sounds. The only problem is that when I bounce the thing to disk and burn a CD, the CD sounds nice, but the volume is much lower than professionally-done CD's I own. Now before anyone tells me to have it mastered professionally, there is no way I am doing this for our band's demo. So, does anyone have any suggestions on how I can fix this, and make our stuff louder, using what I have?

 

[Dogman]

Not sure exactly how pro tools works, but does it have a compressor in it, or a limiter? You could rey and run teh final mix through something that will limit teh sound, but be careful. Compress it too much and it will sound bad. Just save a wav file of the mix you have now, and tehn mess with a copy, in case you blow it. Sonar has some good plugins that will let me boost my mixes up a bit. A good limiter will help with this. Go up a few db, and make a copy. Go up a few more, and make a copy. Burn them, and see if this helps. It can dramaticly change the way the mix sounds though, so some experimentation is in order. Does Pro Tools accept vst plugins? If so, there are some good free plugins out there.

 

[scrubs]

This question gets asked a lot. I mean, at least 3-4 times per week. Look around for some limiter plugins. I posted a few here, but they are all VST and not compatible with ProTools unless you have a RTAS-->VST wrapper. You could always load your mixes into another software program (like Audacity) that supports VST and apply the plugins there. The Kjaerhus Classic Master Limiter is the best freebie limiter I've come across and I'd highly recommend trying it to get your demo mixes louder.

 

[Massive Master]

And keep in mind (no, I'm not trying to discourage) that your mixes will VERY likely *still* not be able to handle the sheer volume of professional recordings.

Louder? Probably.

AS loud as? Almost definitely not. It takes a lot more than a brickwall limiter on the main buss to give a mix the *potential* to BE loud when it's done.

Just something to think about - Don't compromise the sound of the project for the sake of sheer volume - The vast, vast majority of the people who will listen to the finished product know where the volume knob is. And in some cases (like ME), some listeners actually find it PLEASING to have to turn the volume knob *less down* (volume knobs don't make things louder - They attenuate) and get the amp closer to the sweet spot. Plus, the mixes generally just sound much better with some precious dynamics intact.

 

[LeeRosario]

And keep in mind (no, I'm not trying to discourage) that your mixes will VERY likely *still* not be able to handle the sheer volume of professional recordings.

Louder? Probably.

AS loud as? Almost definitely not. It takes a lot more than a brickwall limiter on the main buss to give a mix the *potential* to BE loud when it's done.

Just something to think about - Don't compromise the sound of the project for the sake of sheer volume - The vast, vast majority of the people who will listen to the finished product know where the volume knob is. And in some cases (like ME), some listeners actually find it PLEASING to have to turn the volume knob *less down* (volume knobs don't make things louder - They attenuate) and get the amp closer to the sweet spot. Plus, the mixes generally just sound much better with some precious dynamics intact.

I'm glad there are sane engineers still left in this world.

 

[Cody Suit]

I usually hard limit my final tracks to make them loud. but dont boost it too much or it takes all the dynamics and punch away. everything sounds less powerfull like the kick drum if you hard limit it too much.

 

[Altaire]

And keep in mind (no, I'm not trying to discourage) that your mixes will VERY likely *still* not be able to handle the sheer volume of professional recordings.

Louder? Probably.

AS loud as? Almost definitely not. It takes a lot more than a brickwall limiter on the main buss to give a mix the *potential* to BE loud when it's done.

Just something to think about - Don't compromise the sound of the project for the sake of sheer volume - The vast, vast majority of the people who will listen to the finished product know where the volume knob is. And in some cases (like ME), some listeners actually find it PLEASING to have to turn the volume knob *less down* (volume knobs don't make things louder - They attenuate) and get the amp closer to the sweet spot. Plus, the mixes generally just sound much better with some precious dynamics intact.

what do you mean volume knobs dont turn the volume up, they attenuate?

 

[Massive Master]

A volume knob doesn't "disappear" from a circuit (unity gain) until it's all the way up - Specifically, the proper way to visualize it's function is that it doesn't actually turn the volume "up" - It turns it "less down" - It's mission is always to attenuate a signal - not to increase the gain from an incomming signal.

A regular "volume knob" circuit, by design, is *in the way* of the signal. The further down it is (for example, from mixes that are too loud) the less efficient it's working, and the more "starved" the amplifier is of a clean signal.

 

[7string]

A volume knob doesn't "disappear" from a circuit (unity gain) until it's all the way up - Specifically, the proper way to visualize it's function is that it doesn't actually turn the volume "up" - It turns it "less down" - It's mission is always to attenuate a signal - not to increase the gain from an incomming signal.

A regular "volume knob" circuit, by design, is *in the way* of the signal. The further down it is (for example, from mixes that are too loud) the less efficient it's working, and the more "starved" the amplifier is of a clean signal.

Think of a dimmer switch for lights.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

what do you mean volume knobs dont turn the volume up, they attenuate?

Attenuate = proper way of saying "turn down."

In other words, a volume knob doesn't *actually* turn the volume up, it turns it DOWN. The lower the volume the more it is being turned down, the higher the volume the less it is being turned down.

Since all audio hardware has a "sweet range" where the signal is most linear, and typically this range is approximately 70% of the full travel of the control, having an album that is LOUD-AZ-BALLZ causes the amplifier to function in a less than optimal range. In other words, a DYNAMIC ALBUM played at the same volume level (but with the amplifier working harder) as a LOUD-AZ-BALLZ album will sound better.

The other day I put Nirvana's "Nevermind" versus Thursday's "War All the Time" in an equal loudness war for a client and they were amazed at how poo-poo the LOUD-AZ-BALLZ Thursday album in comparison. Of course, being mooks they still had to successfully measure their penises against crappy nobody bands like Fallout Boy by having equally loud and terrible sounding albums.

In other words, audio quality is no longer a concern of many clients, only sheer volume. It made me want to stop producing rock music altogether...

 

[Ford Van]

Maybe something should be clarified first!

Almost EVERY stereo system in existense uses a "preamplifier circuit" for volume control. This is an ACTIVE circuit, thus, not a truely "passive" circuit. Thus, it is capable if turning up line level signal fed to it to the amplifier.

If we are talking about a passive volume control circuit, then it is certainly true that is ONLY attenuates. But, again, on most consumer playback systems, you DO NOT have a passive volume control.

Where is unity on them? You guess is as good as mine! LOL

 

[LeeRosario]

In other words, audio quality is no longer a concern of many clients, only sheer volume. It made me want to stop producing rock music altogether...

If only most rock producers would understand this, then maybe some day dynamic will come back.

Either that, or have surgeons invent disposable ear drums.

It's a snowball effect. One asshole made a super loud album way back in the day, it caught on and then others followed in its footsteps.


So yes, the loudest album on the block dosn't mean it's the best album. All we have to do is air one commercial on MTV saying,

"Here is the volume knob, if you like your music loud, simply TURN IT UP".

then put some super graphic scene where some kid is bleeding from his ears, and then maybe that will drill the message into peoples heads.

Have OSEA sponsor it.


Everytime I argue this, people hit me back in the one place they can find protection...

"Lee....we do it for EFFECT". Which to that I say,

"well I think that's pure bullshit, cause look at how your album sounds now. Absolutly NO life whatsoever. It starts at one level and ends at one level. Congradulations, if you wanted a purely monotone effect throughout the album, then you achieved it."

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

If only most rock producers would understand this, then maybe some day dynamic will come back.

It's *SO* much more insidious--and widespread--than rock producers. It's a mook thing.

Until it is widely believed that "too loud" albums = less record sales this will continue. Like I said, it's a mook thing.

All I can say is that I'm looking forward to my next jazz or classical symphony orchestra project versus the latest young rock band.

 

[treymonfauntre]

Attenuate = proper way of saying "turn down."

In other words, a volume knob doesn't *actually* turn the volume up, it turns it DOWN. The lower the volume the more it is being turned down, the higher the volume the less it is being turned down.

Since all audio hardware has a "sweet range" where the signal is most linear, and typically this range is approximately 70% of the full travel of the control, having an album that is LOUD-AZ-BALLZ causes the amplifier to function in a less than optimal range. In other words, a DYNAMIC ALBUM played at the same volume level (but with the amplifier working harder) as a LOUD-AZ-BALLZ album will sound better.

The other day I put Nirvana's "Nevermind" versus Thursday's "War All the Time" in an equal loudness war for a client and they were amazed at how poo-poo the LOUD-AZ-BALLZ Thursday album in comparison. Of course, being mooks they still had to successfully measure their penises against crappy nobody bands like Fallout Boy by having equally loud and terrible sounding albums.

In other words, audio quality is no longer a concern of many clients, only sheer volume. It made me want to stop producing rock music altogether...

war all the time is one of the worst sounding records i've heard in a long time. actually, that band has NEVER had a good sounding record.

anyway, i just run a limiter on the ouput buss before exporting the mixdown if i'm just recording some demos and want to send it to friends to listen to real quick.

 

[LeeRosario]

It's *SO* much more insidious--and widespread--than rock producers. It's a mook thing.

Exactly. It's almost like an infection, no one really knows where it began. It only comes to mind after it becomes a big enough problem. Stoping at rock producers would be the incomplete statement.

Until it is widely believed that "too loud" albums = less record sales this will continue. Like I said, it's a mook thing.

Well sadly, I don't beleive there's any direct correlation between loudness and record sales. *However*, I do believe that is an important piece of the puzzle.

And even if they could prove that loudness does in fact mean bad sales, then what? How would responsible professionals like us repair the damage?

Or maybe today's youth is simply evolving to love loud and smashed music?

How could an engineer in 2006 prepare for that?

I ask myself these things cause it seems to be a serious issue for everyone in the music business.

I suppose the best way to achieve anything involving the public listener would be to ease it slowly into society. Kind of like how DVD technology was slowly eased into our everyday lives. Kind of how Bush slowly perverted the reasons and motifs for invading Iraq (just for the sake of argument).

It might very well take another 10 years to undo the damage loud music has done. Maybe 20. Or maybe just something thats part of the evolutionary process. (Can we handle any louder?).

At this rate, our ears can't keep up with the evolution of louder and louder material. So it has to become unbearable at some point.

I can say this:

If music is going to get any louder and if that's what I have to put up with to make a living for the next 35-40 years, I would rather focus on music that's worth pushing out there than distroy the only two pairs of ears I will ever have.

Such a shame, cause rock has always been the first passion on my list and I always want it to be so.

Of course, all these things are easier said than done.

I always have faith that some improvement will turn up.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Well sadly, I don't beleive there's any direct correlation between loudness and record sales. *However*, I do believe that is an important piece of the puzzle.

Notice I said the "belief" that loud ='s more record sales. There's no proof for or against it, it's just a perception that many, many mooks have.

And even if they could prove that loudness does in fact mean bad sales, then what? How would responsible professionals like us repair the damage?

Actually in 5-10 years we'll have a major boon as albums made today are remixed and remastered.

Or maybe today's youth is simply evolving to love loud and smashed music? How could an engineer in 2006 prepare for that?

They definately have evolved to love loud, shitty music. Luckily the sound matches the musicianship of many of these bands. How to prepare for that? Well, don't work with mookish rock bands.

I ask myself these things cause it seems to be a serious issue for everyone in the music business.

I wouldn't consider it serious, just annoying to work on music that has been thrashed to the point of sterile lifelessness.

It might very well take another 10 years to undo the damage loud music has done. Maybe 20. Or maybe just something thats part of the evolutionary process. (Can we handle any louder?).

Nah. Eventually the mooks got sick of the gated reverb on everything 80's, so they'll find something else annoying to beat into the ground.

At this rate, our ears can't keep up with the evolution of louder and louder material. So it has to become unbearable at some point.

People will just keep turning it down like they have been.

If music is going to get any louder and if that's what I have to put up with to make a living for the next 35-40 years, I would rather focus on music that's worth pushing out there than distroy the only two pairs of ears I will ever have.

Turn it down or work with non-mook-rock bands.

Such a shame, cause rock has always been the first passion on my list and I always want it to be so.

Honestly though, rock music is pretty crappy music... not much of a challenge to produce. Sure, I like a lot of rock music but it's pretty boring to engineer.

 

[LeeRosario]

Notice I said the "belief" that loud ='s more record sales. There's no proof for or against it, it's just a perception that many, many mooks have.



Actually in 5-10 years we'll have a major boon as albums made today are remixed and remastered.



They definately have evolved to love loud, shitty music. Luckily the sound matches the musicianship of many of these bands. How to prepare for that? Well, don't work with mookish rock bands.



I wouldn't consider it serious, just annoying to work on music that has been thrashed to the point of sterile lifelessness.



Nah. Eventually the mooks got sick of the gated reverb on everything 80's, so they'll find something else annoying to beat into the ground.



People will just keep turning it down like they have been.



Turn it down or work with non-mook-rock bands.



Honestly though, rock music is pretty crappy music... not much of a challenge to produce. Sure, I like a lot of rock music but it's pretty boring to engineer.

ahh...right on.

 

[BroKenSticKs]

I'm glad to see i'm not the only one who appreciates dynamic music.

 

[sixways]

What did you guys think of the Counting Crows August and Everything After album? I thought it was quite dynamic.

6

 

[rickspringfield]

This evolved into a pretty interesting discussion. However, can anyone still answer something for me, which is:

Regardless of the philosophical and cultural implications of the loudness of my mix, is there any way I can just make it louder using my Pro Tools LE software and any of the mixing capabilities that come with it?

As far as I know, whoever said it is correct, Pro Tools only supports RTAS plug-ins, so the free stuff you mentioned is out. Can I make my demos any louder without buying something expensive?