Vocals coming out either too quiet or not loud enough using Ableton Live

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sonatataster

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So I've started out writing some songs in Live and I've been trying to record some vocals to go with the synth parts I've programmed but I keep running into the problem of not getting high enough levels on the vocals to compete with the instruments. I thought about just making the instruments more quiet, but then the final track will be too quiet (at least that's what I think).

Some background information: I'm using an AT 2035 condenser mic with a ZOOM H4 field recorder as my pre-amp/sound card (I know, but it's what I have). My vocal range is from G2-A3 (on a good day). It has a decent amount of nasalness to it and can be a bit thin at times. I don't usually use too much vibrato.

I've tried turning up the levels on the H4, but that made the vocals sound really harsh up in the high end, like the mic was overloaded, even with me moving further away from the mic. I've tried using the limiter in Live to bring up the levels on the vocals but that creates harshness too. I've tried using compressors and equalizers, but I'm not sure that I'm using them right.

I've poked around a bit and I'm wondering if the culprit is the equipment that I'm using or if it's possible to correct the problem using software. In terms of the equipment, I'd be more inclined to change mics, as I can still return it and get the full value, whereas the H4 wouldn't get me enough to get a decent interface, although I have a feeling that's going to be the only solution. Thanks in advance.
 
sonatataster said:
t I keep running into the problem of not getting high enough levels on the vocals to compete with the instruments. I thought about just making the instruments more quiet, but then the final track will be too quiet (at least that's what I think)
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Without numbers, like what level are your vocals averaging, and what level they're peaking at, it's very hard to help you.

I'll go out on a limb, though, and say that I bet your vocal levels are just right and you DO need to turn down the instruments. There's no such thing as a mix being too low. You worry about volume during the mastering process, not during mixing. It's totally normal to have your mix sound WAAAYYYY lower than a commercial CD. You just have to turn up your monitors while mixing.

Once you have your mix the way you want it, then you take the 2-track final mix, open a new project , and apply whatever you need to get the volume of your mix up, if you want it louder. How that's done is a whole other conversation. But the point is, don't worry about your mix being lower than the finished product.
 
Oh wow. I had absolutely no idea about that. Could you post a link to an example of what the levels on an umastered mix should sound like so I can get an idea?

I'm curious how the vocals won't come out sounding distorted during the mastering process if the volume is being increased dramatically. I'm guessing that's a rather lengthy explanation, so if you could suggest a good introduction on how to master a mix and/or if Live can be used for it, that'd be great. Thanks in advance.
 
Oops. I totally just overlooked the most important part of your post. I will come back with detailed information on the levels once I've had a chance to analyze them.
 
When tracking try to keep your peak level around -12dBFS or a bit lower. Unless you have spectacular vintage boutique processing hardware save compression etc. for later. Don't use any built in digital processing on the way in. Don't be afraid to turn backing tracks down if needed.

If your unmastered mix peaks below -6dBFS it's probably close enough. I aim for about -12dBFS but I generally overshoot that level a little. Again, don't be afraid to turn stuff down if needed. This is not the stage to get your final loudness.

Once the mix is done it can be mastered using eq and dynamics processing that won't cause the kind of distortion that you are worried about. You can get stupid levels of "volume" by trading away dynamics.

I don't know about Ableton Live, but most DAWs have enough plugins to do an okay job of mastering if used correctly. It's more about skill and technique than fancy plugins. Good mastering-specific plugins certainly help but will never compensate for lack of technique.
 
Thanks so much guys. You've been immensely helpful. My last question should be a pretty simple one: what happens if, in the name of trying to keep source levels low to get more loudness during mastering, it becomes difficult to hear the nuance of the recording? Is it best to use a limiter on the master track, so that I can adjust the instruments to match the vocals, or just the individual track, or does it matter? Obviously, I wouldn't render it like that, it would be for mixing purposes only. Thanks again.
 
Honestly, it should be as simple as turning up your monitors when you mix. If you start applying effects to the master track, it might make your mix a little dishonest, for lack of a better term.

When I listen to most commercial CD's, I have my volume at 9 O'clock (7 O'clock being zero). When I'm mixing, I'm turned up to as much as 12 or 1 O'clock at times. I don't even think about it any more, it's just the way it is.
 
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