Vocal Recording Issues...about my recent session

[Myriad_Rocker]

Okay, so I'm doing my very first full blown large scale project. It just happens to be with my own band. We have recorded drums, bass, and guitars. Everything sounds good. Our first vocal recording session was Saturday. I have three vocal mics to choose so we go through the paces of trying out each one.

First up was the SM7b. Sounded good...not mind blowing, but good. There was something odd about it, though. Next up, the Rode NTK. Now, this mic seems to have a bad rep. We let this mic warm up while we were testing the SM7 since the NTK is tube. We threw it up and and got to work. Immediately, I noticed this odd upper mid range about it that didn't sit well with me for some reason. It sounded hyped or just strange. And it also shared something in common with the SM7b...there was that same "odd" thing about it. The next mic up was an AT4033. I think of this mic as the cheapest vocal mic I have. And probably one that you wouldn't want to use for the lead vocals on a rock album. We got to work with this one and the sound of the mic just seemed to sit better in the mix. That upper mid thing was gone. And that "odd" thing was gone.

And I realized what that "odd" thing was on the SM7 and NTK. The vocals SOUNDED like they were recorded separately, if that makes sense. They just stuck out. It sounded like he was singing over a CD...kareokee or however you spell it. The 4033 didn't have that. In just waltzed in and sat down right in the middle of the mix.

So...here's the deal. I don't know WHY, but it bothers me that the cheapest mic in my vocal mic closet was the chosen mic here. I can come to terms more about it beating out the NTK than I can with it seemingly beating out the SM7. The SM7 is a staple! I also can't help but wonder what other mics are out there that mic sound better than the 4033. It did sit better in the mix, but I didn't hear any "magic" with it, if that makes sense.

Was it an EQ thing on the SM7 and NTK? Could I have made it better? I can't help but wonder if I was missing some of the magic on the SM7 and/or NTK...more so on the SM7. And what was with them sounding like they were being used "outside" of the mix? The SM7 and NTK just sounded like they were being recorded separately.

Anyway, just looking for some advice. Sorry about the long post. Should I snag a TLM103? Or perhaps a Soundelux U195? Or maybe a Puelso? Or should I think about picking up an AT4050 or 4060? Would it be worth it? I don't have all kinds of money. If I had deep pockets, I would just buy everything I could. And I also have no choice but to buy used.

By the way, I was running through a Great River pre.

 

[tmix]

Myriad Rocker,
There are many things that can cause what you said, but ultimately, it is a blending of the voice, the mic and its associated response, and the room.

The 4033 is a good vocal mic for some. i find it a little bright with some scooped mids. the SM7 has more mids, maybe too much for the particular voice, or voice -room combo.

the Great Rivers is supposedly a great pre. I had one for about 2 weeks and returned it because (for whatever reason) it imparted something to the sound I did not like. I got a few RNPs and a few DMP-3s.

Mics and voices are funny. Although I have tube mics and even a Neumann TLM-49, often the best match for the voice is my MXL V67!

In a different room / preamp combo it might sound totally different.

 

[NL5]

Heck, I have done projects on a $300 SM7 because it sounded better than a $3k Gefell. If it sounds better for that application, IT IS BETTER.

I would love to hear samples with each mic in the mix to see if other people hear it the same as you. I've never had a vocal not "sit in the mix", but for sure have had vocal mics that didn't work with certain singers......

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

Didn't even think to post this...

Here's the vocalist in action... http://www.myspace.com/blackleafclover

Sorry about it being MySpace. Hopefully it will help give an idea as to the type of voice I'm working with.

 

[Ironklad Audio]

the last time i checked, the 4033 is no cheaper a mic than the SM7...

and even if it is, who cares? if it does the job, it does the job

and i've also had the problem before of having a vocal that sits "on top" of the mix rather than "in" the mix, and it was simply due to someone using the most expensive mic available, rather than the BEST mic available

 

[NL5]

the last time i checked, the 4033 is no cheaper a mic than the SM7...

and even if it is, who cares? if it does the job, it does the job

Yep, yep, and yep. I think the 4033 is actually $50 more.....

and i've also had the problem before of having a vocal that sits "on top" of the mix rather than "in" the mix, and it was simply due to someone using the most expensive mic available, rather than the BEST mic available

I would love to hear some samples of this. I have never had this problem due to the mic used. Maybe I've just been lucky?

Didn't even think to post this...

Here's the vocalist in action... http://www.myspace.com/blackleafclover

Sorry about it being MySpace. Hopefully it will help give an idea as to the type of voice I'm working with.

I know this is older stuff, but I hear the separation you are talking about, but it's the entire mix. Sonically, the tracks sound too dissimilar to me. It's also very two dimensional. Like I said though, I know those mixes are old, and I am very curious to hear some new stuff. I actually like the band alot. I hear a touch of Armored Saint in there maybe?????

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

and i've also had the problem before of having a vocal that sits "on top" of the mix rather than "in" the mix, and it was simply due to someone using the most expensive mic available, rather than the BEST mic available

Which is why I settled on the 4033. I'm just voicing my surprise that the AT4033 beat out the SM7 and NTK. Frankly, I don't get it. I don't know the "why" to the equation. "It is what it is" simply will not work for me.

Yep, yep, and yep. I think the 4033 is actually $50 more.....

You got me there...but still.

I would love to hear some samples of this. I have never had this problem due to the mic used. Maybe I've just been lucky?

More on this to come. Probably will be later this week, though. Vocalist isn't coming back over until Thursday.

I know this is older stuff, but I hear the separation you are talking about, but it's the entire mix. Sonically, the tracks sound too dissimilar to me. It's also very two dimensional. Like I said though, I know those mixes are old, and I am very curious to hear some new stuff. I actually like the band alot. I hear a touch of Armored Saint in there maybe?????

Actually, I kind of like how the vocals sat in those mixes. The guitar tone leaves something to be desired, but I liked the vocal sound. Yes, they sit on top of the mix a bit, but I thought they had that "out front and in your face" vibe. I'm trying to find out what mic that was...I suspect it was the TLM103. The AT4033 tucks into the mix more than the vocal tracks on the MySpace page. Maybe that's where I'm thinking there's no real "magic"? Of course, this is all sans EQ, compression, etc.

Thanks for the compliments. Glad you like. Who's Armored Saint?

 

[NL5]

Actually, I kind of like how the vocals sat in those mixes. The guitar tone leaves something to be desired, but I liked the vocal sound. Yes, they sit on top of the mix a bit, but I thought they had that "out front and in your face" vibe. I'm trying to find out what mic that was...I suspect it was the TLM103. The AT4033 tucks into the mix more than the vocal tracks on the MySpace page. Maybe that's where I'm thinking there's no real "magic"? Of course, this is all sans EQ, compression, etc.

Thanks for the compliments. Glad you like. Who's Armored Saint?

It is your band, no?

I just thought I heard a tad bit of influence from Armored Saint. They were a metal band in the 80's. (I'm old.... )

As far as the myspace stuff, it's hard for me to explain what I am talking about. Those samples just sounded not very cohesive. Just like you said the vocals seemed to be "on top of the mix", not part of it. The songs I listened too were like that with all the parts IMHO. It's not a dig on the recording, but as something too look at this time around to make the mixes better. It also reinforces what I thought when I read your post. It has less to do with the mic and more to do with the mixing. Mic's can make a HUGE difference in how the singer sounds for sure, but it has little to do with "sitting in the mix" - at least IMO. Try going to http://www.myspace.com/disturbed - pull up your myspace and go back and forth between "Down with the sickness" and "Up until" - Now, that's a great band with Andy Wallace mixing it, so I don't mean it as a direct comparison - that is AW at his finest IMO - but, certainly something to shoot towards. However, if you adjust for the volume difference, pay attention to the DEPTH of the mix and the way the vocal sits. Listen to the way the mix is like a giant ball, and not a flat piece of paper. Hopefully that makes sense??? I'm a retard, so it probably doesn't.

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

It is your band, no?

I just thought I heard a tad bit of influence from Armored Saint. They were a metal band in the 80's. (I'm old.... )

Yes, it's my band. I don't know Armored Saint so any similarity is coincidence. I'll have to check them out, though. I dig a lot of the 80's metal stuff.

As far as the myspace stuff, it's hard for me to explain what I am talking about. Those samples just sounded not very cohesive. Just like you said the vocals seemed to be "on top of the mix", not part of it. The songs I listened too were like that with all the parts IMHO. It's not a dig on the recording, but as something too look at this time around to make the mixes better. It also reinforces what I thought when I read your post. It has less to do with the mic and more to do with the mixing. Mic's can make a HUGE difference in how the singer sounds for sure, but it has little to do with "sitting in the mix" - at least IMO. Try going to http://www.myspace.com/disturbed - pull up your myspace and go back and forth between "Down with the sickness" and "Up until" - Now, that's a great band with Andy Wallace mixing it, so I don't mean it as a direct comparison - that is AW at his finest IMO - but, certainly something to shoot towards. However, if you adjust for the volume difference, pay attention to the DEPTH of the mix and the way the vocal sits. Listen to the way the mix is like a giant ball, and not a flat piece of paper. Hopefully that makes sense??? I'm a retard, so it probably doesn't.

Fair enough. I didn't record the songs on the MySpace, though. IMHO, my recordings (from a guitar perspective) sound better. Or thicker and "bigger", anyway. I can see what you're saying, for sure, though. Andy Wallet (intentional) is a tall order to try and meet, though.

 

[NL5]

Fair enough. I didn't record the songs on the MySpace, though. IMHO, my recordings (from a guitar perspective) sound better. Or thicker and "bigger", anyway. I can see what you're saying, for sure, though. Andy Wallet (intentional) is a tall order to try and meet, though.

Well crap, nevermind then! Now I look forward to hearing your bands new stuff even more!

Check out Armored Saint though, you might like it, maybe not. Not one of my favorites, but for some reason I thought of them when I listened to "Up Until" - might be the vox that has a twinge of similarity. I dunno.

 

[Myriad_Rocker]

Check out Armored Saint though, you might like it, maybe not. Not one of my favorites, but for some reason I thought of them when I listened to "Up Until"

Well, hopefully we're a bit better than some 80's band that is "not one of your favorites". Meh, it's hard to be ANYONE'S favorite these days.

And for what it's worth:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NL5 again.

 

[NL5]

Well, hopefully we're a bit better than some 80's band that is "not one of your favorites". Meh, it's hard to be ANYONE'S favorite these days.

They have a couple songs I like, and I just thought I heard a touch of influence. Every musician has influences, and has no bearing on being a good band or not....

http://www.myspace.com/armoredsaint1

Listen to "Last Train Home" - that's off the album I liked. Looks like it was '91 though. There were several much better songs on that album, and I know their big time fans like the earlier stuff better. Not even sure why your band reminded me of them - like I said, I am retarded most of the time.