vocal levels compared to other instruments

[BassyBassyBass]

Hi. I am an amateur and hobbyist mixologist, and I have been trying to figure out lately, if, in a typical rock song (for example, old Guns n Roses, Alice in Chains, Stone Temple Pilots, to name a few), the vocals, are actually louder than all other instruments (in addition to being accommodated by the rest of the mix), or is it just that in a professional production, everything is so well balanced/eq'd/etc. that the vox just cut through? It's hard to tell simply by listening, for me. I've also been listening to the radio to try to figure this out, and from what I've read, there are actually separate radio mixes from the album cuts of songs, way more compressed and with the vox boosted, I'm assuming? Seems like as I turn the volume down on the radio, vox stay prominent while just the highs of other instruments peak through (for instance, you can hear a guitar, but not really what the guitar's doing musically).

I realize this is a question with no one answer, but I was hoping there were at least some guidelines or starting points.

I've only ever been able to make the vocals in my songs crystal clear by making them quite a bit louder than everything else.

 

[Massive Master]

Just FYI: A Mixologist is someone trained in bartending.

Anyway -- It's a mix (no pun intended) of timbral and spectral balance, along with volume. Both are as important as the other - Well, arguably, tonal balance is more important than volume. If you have a mix where everything sort of naturally "works well together" because the elements in that mix are tonally compatible with each other, volume is much more a matter of 'taste' than anything else.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I've also been listening to the radio to try to figure this out, and from what I've read, there are actually separate radio mixes from the album cuts of songs, way more compressed and with the vox boosted, I'm assuming?

There are radio mixes, but they're usually just edited for bad language. What you're hearing is the processing (multi-band compression etc.) stations use to boost average levels and even out differences from track to track. Often they'll have an exciter/enhancer on the signal as well.

 

[BassyBassyBass]

Sorry, I should have put "mixologist" in quotes to indicate I was being a dork and using it incorrectly with purpose.

Anyway, so in other words, my lack of vocals cutting through lies somewhere else, not in volume.

And I swear I read there were radio mixes "dumbed down" for that medium, but I guess I was wrong.

thanks.

 

[Massive Master]

Some radio versions are less squashed (as radio stations tend to squash the crap out of everything).

 

[BassyBassyBass]

What I've noticed is that everything sounds "bigger" and "more open" on a CD than the same song on the radio. Extremes of low and high freqs seem gone on radio versions. For instance, Stone Temple Pilots. . .drums on their second album are very big (nice separation, kick all up in your face and whatnot, etc.) on CD, not so much on radio.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

in a typical rock song (for example, old Guns n Roses, Alice in Chains, Stone Temple Pilots, to name a few), the vocals, are actually louder than all other instruments (in addition to being accommodated by the rest of the mix), or is it just that in a professional production, everything is so well balanced/eq'd/etc. that the vox just cut through?

It is both. The vox certainly are the loudest thing in many of those mixes, but without skilled production on everything top-to-bottom loud vocals will sound like a dude singing karaoke on top of an unrelated instrument track.

 

[bdenton]

There are radio mixes, but they're usually just edited for bad language.

Maybe so today, but back in my Top 40 days...

For a while, in the early 70's, a lot of radio stations started speeding up their turntables, which would allow you to "squeeze" an extra record or two into a 3 or 4 hour airshift.

This made the artists unhappy, so some record labels started shipping DJ copies that were slowed down during the mastering process. Put them on a sped-up turntable, and they played back at normal speed.

Of course, there was at least one station I know of that actually slowed records down. It was one of those old 50,000 watt AM stations, that played what was known as an "adult" format, typically kinda soft rock ("Feelings", anyone?). Elvis Presley put out "Burning Love", which was a very uptempo tune, far faster than what normally fit into the "adult" format.

This station had to play "Burning Love", simply because it was Elvis, who was huge with their demographic. So, they put it on slowed-down turntable and dubbed it onto a tape cartridge for playback on the air.

Which made it kind of interesting when you were driving around in your car and punching back and forth between stations. On all of the other Top 40 stations in town you heard, "Lordamighty", while on the adult station you heard, "Lord...a...mighty".

 

[Massive Master]

There are radio mixes, but they're usually just edited for bad language.

Now they're edited for reasonable dynamics too.

It's actually funny/sad... If the typical listener could hear how great some of these recordings sound before the "public" version is smashed to bits, there would probably be an uprising from the public...

 

[Lt. Bob]

Now they're edited for reasonable dynamics too.

...

do they have to make special mixes for that?

Doesn't the process of 'airing' it do the squashing regardless of whether there's a speacial mix?

 

[Chibi Nappa]

do they have to make special mixes for that?

Doesn't the process of 'airing' it do the squashing regardless of whether there's a speacial mix?

Yeah, that's why they make a dynamic version.

Dynamic song + squash = dog shit

squash + squash = mastodon shit



In order for the air waves to contain the same dog shit found on the store shelves, they need to start with something better than dog shit.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Yeah, that's why they make a dynamic version.

Dynamic song + squash = dog shit

squash + squash = mastodon shit



In order for the air waves to contain the same dog shit found on the store shelves, they need to start with something better than dog shit.

gotcha ......... so the radio mixes are less compressed.

 

[xfinsterx]

While i dont think there are any hard and fast answers to getting the vocal to sit in a mix properly i do think there are some things you could try.

Heres one....Do your drum sounds have a lot of cymbal bleed in them?
Nothing muddies up a mix faster than cymbal bleed in tracks like the tom tracks or even the snare. Gates, drum replacement, or simply less compression can help if this is an issue.

Given you mentioned 90's grunge bands i assume you are mixing rock.

Heres another....Did you use too much distortion on the guitars?
Ive consistently found that less is more in that area. So maybe take a look at that.

Often times the bass guitar can muddy up a mix too...i find myself pulling energy out of the bass around say 100hz-130hz in order to free up some space in the mix. And while most vocal tracks dont necessarily live in that eq range dominantly, just freeing up some of the "mud" in the lower region can help with clarity which exponentially helps with vocal placement.


Again these are not hard and fast rules by any means, but they may at least get the wheels turning. Cheers.

 

[Massive Master]

The radio version tends to be the "get it to sound good" version.

Then you take the radio version and basically [SELF-CENSORED] it up completely for the public version.

It's actually rather sickening...

Goes back to the "as much as I'd hate to have a 'standard' for volume..." thing... If everyone wasn't fighting to be louder, a lot of crappy sounding music would sound fantastic.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Heres one....Do your drum sounds have a lot of cymbal bleed in them?
Nothing muddies up a mix faster than cymbal bleed in tracks like the tom tracks or even the snare. Gates, drum replacement, or simply less compression can help if this is an issue.

Before reaching for gates or replacement, don't forget drum keys and playing the kit with better balance.

 

[BassyBassyBass]

I'll try your suggestions.

Sorry, I should have mentioned all the drums are the midi samples from Logic Express 8, so no bleed. That doesn't mean there aren't other problems.

I I did a lot of screwing around with setting on the guitars before recording them. . .it's a metal song, so I wanted some distortion, but I was going for 80s metal, so not too much. I think they sound decent. Rhythm guitars are also double tracked and one panned l, other panned r.

 

[xfinsterx]

Before reaching for gates or replacement, don't forget drum keys and playing the kit with better balance.

That is true in the tracking phase yes.

 

[xfinsterx]

I'll try your suggestions.

Sorry, I should have mentioned all the drums are the midi samples from Logic Express 8, so no bleed. That doesn't mean there aren't other problems.

I I did a lot of screwing around with setting on the guitars before recording them. . .it's a metal song, so I wanted some distortion, but I was going for 80s metal, so not too much. I think they sound decent. Rhythm guitars are also double tracked and one panned l, other panned r.

Oh i see. So whats next then? Tell me about the plug ins you are using on the vocal...what order...whats the vocal sound like? Thats the next thing to tackle.

 

[benage]

Hi, It sounds to me that your vocal may be being masked by other mid range frequencies probably from your lead instruments, by scooping some of the mid range from your guitars, say 3-4 db at 1khz reaching from 500hz to 5khz (as a starting point), you can create a pocket for the vocal to sit in. This way you can turn it down and still be able to hear it clearly. To answer your question about how loud you have vocal compared to other lead instruments, I try to mix them so they sound the same apparent volume , sort of inbetween a knocked back and upfront vocal. I find this creates a nice even feel to the mix and translates well to many systems.

Going back to my point about removing some mids from other instruments, your 'vocal won't sit properly' question comes up quite alot on these forums and my suggestion is rarely put forward even though to me seems like the most obvious answer, and that tequinique is well known and recomended elsewhere, I might be missing something, I have been recording for 3-4 years now but am not a pro like some users here, I know most people try to get stuff right at the source, i.e don't create a guitar tone with too strong a mid range in the first place, but once your at the mixing stage this technique is sound as far as I know and works well for me on sampled guitars and the like.

 

[tonesponge]

I've heard that a rule of thumb for a pro mix is that as you turn the volume down until it disappears, the very last things to disappear should be the vocals and snare.

As far as radio vs CD verions, I though the radio version was just the CD version pumped through a 8 band multi-band compressor (plus an edit here or there for language). It's the radio station pumping it through the multiband compressor. They are just playing the CD. Is that not the case?