Vintech v. Neve demonstration

[JerryWeinstein]

The sales rep for Vintech at the AES convention had a Vintech copy of a Neve 1073 and a Neve 1073. Using a 414 mic he put them both on and then said that if they send the exact same signal, when put out of phase they will cancel each other out. He did the demo and lo and behold, the cancelled each other out. Complete silence until they were back in phase.

What does this mean. Does it mean they will sound the samel. Does it mean that Vintech has truly nailed the design of the Neve. Does it mean that there is no reason anymore to spend the money on a vintage Neve when you can get Vintech for less.

 

[Geoff_T]

The sales rep for Vintech at the AES convention had a Vintech copy of a Neve 1073 and a Neve 1073. Using a 414 mic he put them both on and then said that if they send the exact same signal, when put out of phase they will cancel each other out. He did the demo and lo and behold, the cancelled each other out. Complete silence until they were back in phase.

What does this mean. Does it mean they will sound the samel. Does it mean that Vintech has truly nailed the design of the Neve. Does it mean that there is no reason anymore to spend the money on a vintage Neve when you can get Vintech for less.

No, no and no.

OK don't get me wrong, I think that they make a spendid recreation of Neve modules but the burning question is "how close is close?".

A sample of relatively quiet musical frequencies may imply matching characteristics but there's more to circuit and component design than is revealed by that procedure.

For instance, I listened to that Pro-tools plug in of the Neve 1084 and it sort of sounded like a Neve to my tired old ears but again, how close is that in a noisy exhibition environment with no real module to compare to?

One irrefutable fact is that St Ives windings did not make output transformers for early Neve modules... they made the little green input transformers.

There's a lot more than basic laminations, turns ratios, resistances and reactive issues in creating a transformer. St Ives have made a grand stab at recreating the original transformer (as no doubt has Sowter) but, take it from me, I know for a fact that AMS-Neve do not use that version in their 1073/1084 recreations because it does not meet original Neve specs.

On a lesser scale, there are also minor capacitive and inductive issues that will occur if you use a motherboard instead of the individual cards and discrete wiring.

Bottom line is that if you want an exact match, buy a carefully maintained original 1073 or one of the new AMS-Neve offerings.

If you want a pretty close match... buy a clone.

Geoff
http://www.auroraaudio.net/main.shtml

 

[fenix]

He did the demo and lo and behold, the cancelled each other out. Complete silence until they were back in phase.

I doubt there was complete silence.

 

[maskedman72]

i would have to say that there are many pres that have the same neve design in mind but if you want that 1073 sound than buy a 1073.

 

[regebro]

Complete silence until they were back in phase.

What does this mean. Does it mean they will sound the samel. Does it mean that Vintech has truly nailed the design of the Neve. Does it mean that there is no reason anymore to spend the money on a vintage Neve when you can get Vintech for less.

Well, in theory, yes. If there really was COMPLETE silence. And if if they didn't send a signal they had tested before and knew would work. And unless the sound phasing circuits didn't fudge it.

 

[Fletcher]

The sales rep .....and then said that if they send the exact same signal, when put out of phase they will cancel each other out. He did the demo and lo and behold, the cancelled each other out. Complete silence until they were back in phase.

Congratulations, he matched the level!! Whoo-hoo... neat party trick.

What does this mean. Does it mean they will sound the same.

No. It means he matched the level. Phase related information, harmonic distortions, etc will inded be different... at like -80, -90 db. Hell, two original "Neve®" modules won't "100%" cancel never mind a unit with different components and layout...

Does it mean that Vintech has truly nailed the design of the Neve. Does it mean that there is no reason anymore to spend the money on a vintage Neve when you can get Vintech for less.

If you like the sound of a Vintech... get a Vintech... but if you're buying it because you think it has anything to do with a real Neve module... you're probably thinking you can grow your johnson 3-5 inches by answering an email.

The "design of Neve" is public domain, you want a copy? The components are obtainable... the results, unpredictable. As Geoff pointed out... there is more to the sound of a unit than putting the same components in a box and telling the world you've recreated a classic... much like Dodge's "PT Cruiser" isn't a hot rod... the Vintech ain't a Neve... the PT Cruiser is a PT Cruiser and a Vintech is a Vintech... I see a lot of PT Cruisers on the road so somebody must like them [though I wouldn't be caught dead in one]... as always, YMMV.

 

[JerryWeinstein]

In response, I thought the phase cancellation trick was a bit corny but still, the modules had similar sounds. So I wonder, why would the same design and same components not sound similar.

As I understand it, original Neve modules can differ in sound. Therefore, there is no one Neve sound and a Vintech compy can then be a similar sound or at least in the ball park, could it not?

I am not advocating, just trying to understand more fully.

 

[regebro]

Components vary, an especially coils/transformers. Also, many of the parts are tweakable, and hence the tweaking will change the sound.

Many of the parts in the originals are no longer available from the original manufacturers, and hence it is impossible to make an exact copy.

But yes, by measuring a whole bunch of originals that you find particularily well sounding, replicating this electronics as far as you can, you should in theory be able to make a copy that is sonically indistinguishable or at least has a sound quality that is on par with the originals.

Then it comes to a question of cost. Making an exact replica is often too expensive.

I wish I had an original Neve and a copy, then I'd submit people to double blind testing, to see if they really can tell which is the original and which is the copy. *evil grin*

 

[Geoff_T]

In response, I thought the phase cancellation trick was a bit corny but still, the modules had similar sounds. So I wonder, why would the same design and same components not sound similar.

As I understand it, original Neve modules can differ in sound. Therefore, there is no one Neve sound and a Vintech compy can then be a similar sound or at least in the ball park, could it not?

I am not advocating, just trying to understand more fully.

Hi

One of the problems with the vintage Neve 1073's (and similar series) is that two of the most critical electrolytic capacitors are mounted right next to the heat sink for the 2N3055 and cook. If these aren't changed since the module was built the negative feedback path will be screwy, to say the least.

There are also lots of "Neve secrets" concerning the reasons for choosing specific components... like tantalum caps instead of aluminum electrolytic and the precise type of transistor.

If you choose to design a clone you must use a good condition 1073 as your model. Then you must use exactly identical components and the most important component for the Neve sound is the iron/transformers which, as I mentioned before, St Ives never made the original transformers so whether you use St Ives or Sowter... at best they can only be a close approximation with the original.

Who knows? They may even sound better! Bottom line is that they won't sound the same at every frequency and every level.

It's like all the posts in the past about 1272's being the "same as" a 1073 when they clearly can not be at gains above around 45dB as the circuitry is completely different. Ironically, a guy posted a so-called "circuit" on the web a while back and everyone jumped on the bandwagon assuming that this circuit was the way to go... which was total nonsense and produces modules that are around -7dB at 20Hz at high gains. Neve sound that is not.

The other irony was that Neve NEVER used the 1272 as a mic pre other than as a talkback amp in their consoles... the 1290 was the module the cloners should have copied!

Plus, if the guy who posted the original circuit had just studied how the Neve talkback amp was used to provide low distortion and (relatively) wide response as a talkback amp, he would have seen the correct way to wire one and all the 1272 clones could sound more Neve-like.

I think it's fair to say that any Neve clone... with the exception of the new AMS-Neve 1073/1084... will sound like the OEM manufacturer attemped to achieve. It'll be close... like the Neve PT plug in... but identical? You wish!




Geoff
http://www.auroraaudio.net/main.shtml