Using submix busses

[sausy1981]

Hi guys,
Recently Ive been trying new things and one of the things Ive tried is to set up a submix bus for different elements of the mix.
I'll use my last mix as an example...
It consists of pop/rock drum kit from EZ drummer, 2 electric guitars, an acoustic guitar, bass guitar, lead guitar, organ, tambourine, lead vocal and backing vocal.
I process each individual piece of the drumkit and send this to a drum bus, on the drum bus I then use a bus compressor to gel the kit together.
I then move onto the guitars, I eq each guitar so that their not clashing too much with each other but I dont worry about them clashing with vocals or drums. I then route them all to a guitar bus, this includes the 2 electrics, acoustic guitar, bass guitar and lead guitar. I then put the same buss compressor I used on the drum buss on the guitar buss, but I set it that the needle is just barely moving, I just want all the guitars to pass through this compressor to gel them together.
I then process the vocals and make sure their not in the way of each other and then I sent these to a vocal buss, I Then put a buss compressor on this bus and as I did with the guitars I just barely move the needle, Its just to gel the vocal tracks.

At this point I then pull down the faders on the submix busses and hit play, I bring up the drums first and set the level, I then bring in the guitar buss and set the level relative to the drums, then I bring in the vocal buss and set the level. I haven't sent the organ or tambourine to a buss, I just bring them in and set level and eq so theydont mask any of the busses. At this point I put an eq on each of the busses and I eq each buss to sort out any masking issues. So for example I cut a bit around the low mids of the drums and this made space for the guitars, I then cut gently around the high mids on the guitar buss to make room for the vocals.
And voila thats the technique I've been using recently. Basically its a case of processing everything as I usually do but I dont worry about masking until I'm eq'ing my submix busses. I then tweak individual tracks if needed but always going back to the compressor on the buss that instrument belongs after I've done anything. What do you guys think of this technique? It's hard to type out what I'm trying to explain but I hope you get the jist.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Yeah...uh...yeah.

Do that kinda crap all the time. Not so much for the "group eq" thing, though I have used that technique. I like sometimes to stick a saturation plug on the busses too. In a lot of situations I like to do a "pre-emphasis/de-emphasis" EQ thing around the comp/saturation. Like on the guitar buss I might add a bunch of low mid beforehand and then pull that back out.

I guess I usually don't buss the bass with the guitars, and usually keep leads separate from rhythms, but whatever sounds good...

 

[GONZO-X]

remember...
if you are pushing your sub mixes thru a compressor (or limiter) on your 2-bus, that the harder you push your signal in from the sub busses, the harder the compressor will push back..
changing everything all at once.

beware, dangerous.

but if you know what you are doing, can get very dialed in.

it all depends.
so many variables.

 

[mixsit]

I then move onto the guitars, I eq each guitar so that their not clashing too much with each other but I dont worry about them clashing with vocals or drums.

I then route them all to a guitar bus, this includes the 2 electrics, acoustic guitar, bass guitar and lead guitar.

I then put the same buss compressor I used on the drum buss on the guitar buss,

At this point I put an eq on each of the busses and I eq each buss to sort out any masking issues.

Basically its a case of processing everything as I usually do but I dont worry about masking until I'm eq'ing my submix busses. ..

Ok a few things that stick out, or see differently I suppose
I'd tend to try to start in more of a global mode right off- Roughing in tracks with an eye to the whole or end' to what ever extent possible.
This is like balancing' all along the way- 'first instincts, in and out of various discovery and problem solving modes, back and forth in 'micro and global modes, different circles of attention.
I have drum, bass, vocal busses (at a minimum) set in my templates, but 'zeroed out, comps and stuff off initially, and beyond that I'd group stuff as needed 'song by song basis.
I'm more likely to pick or try different comps at the track levels first or at the bus if there's enough tracks to warrant it.
..masking, sound stage, separation -or density! All more a work in progress all along the way I guess.

 

[mjbphotos]

I don't have a 'usual' buss template, except for EZ Drums - I've got templates set up to have each drum/mic on its own track, to a single buss.
Depending on how many guitars end up in the mix, I may have all the rhythm guitars on one buss. I may end up putting all the instruments (including drums) on a buss as Iusually mix all the instruments before adding the vocals, so will want to pull down (or up) all the instrument volumes. I may have all the backing vocals on a buss, but rarely have a buss that includes lead vocals and BG vocals.
I may put compression on the BG vocal buss, but never on an instrument buss, adding instrument compression separately. Like mixsit, I tend to attack the whole mix (a little bit at a time), adjusting EQs separately on tracks but with the whole mix in mind.

 

[sausy1981]

Ok a few things that stick out, or see differently I suppose
I'd tend to try to start in more of a global mode right off- Roughing in tracks with an eye to the whole or end' to what ever extent possible.
This is like balancing' all along the way- 'first instincts, in and out of various discovery and problem solving modes, back and forth in 'micro and global modes, different circles of attention.
I have drum, bass, vocal busses (at a minimum) set in my templates, but 'zeroed out, comps and stuff off initially, and beyond that I'd group stuff as needed 'song by song basis.

I do mix the project a lot before sending the tracks to their busses, for example I'll make sure that the kick and bass guitar are seperated, and suff like that, I just dont make major eq cuts on the tracks, I suppose I'd have 90 per cent of the mix done before sending tracks to busses, especially on a macro level where I've all issues fixed etc, I just eq gently knowing that I may be cutting a bit at that frequency when I'm eq'ing the buss that that instrument is going to, also I am a bit cautious with compression on each track as I know I'll be compressing the buss track gently. Basically the mix is done and then I send the instruments to different busses, I then process the busses in a similiar fashion although it is just eq and compression, the important thing is using the same compressor on each buss, It just seems to make the mix gel a bit more.
The only thing I'm now thinking about is whether I should be putting my bass in the guitars buss as we know how the lower end of the bass may trigger the buss compressor. would you have any suggestions to improve this technique?

 

[GONZO-X]

always send a bass to a bass buss.

if you do any EQ or compression or limiting, you only want those things effecting the bass, not other tracks.

busses are excellent ways of separating, and simplifying the routing and usage of effects.
cuts down on CPU loading as well..

and just generally is easier, when it's simpler.

 

[sixer2007]

also I am a bit cautious with compression on each track as I know I'll be compressing the buss track gently. B

I'm curious though.. What do you do when different tracks (that will end up at the same buss) need different compressor settings? In my experience, BGV can take far more compression than lead vocals, and a lead guitar might need a quick attack and release to enhance the part's plucking style (if that's what you're dealing with). If you use the same compression on either rhythm and lead guitar or back and lead vocals, can't you miss out on some of the uses of the compressor?
I compress my busses slightly as well, but always after I've gotten the sound I wanted with an initial comp at track level.

 

[blinkofeye]

I do the same thing , except , i send my bass (I usually have 2 tracks of bass) to a separate bass buss , and then send all the busses to another "premix" bus ,this way you can send the whole mix to some process (reverb maybe ?) and then mix it in parallel , as the matter of fact i have another "main mix" bus as well , to send my premix and my send bus to that and finally i rout my main mix to master fader I usually use a saturator and a very light multi comp on my "main mix" bus , just enough to glue them together , and finally some passive eq to fix muddiness or to lighten the mix before mastering

 

[ashcat_lt]

I'm curious though.. What do you do when different tracks (that will end up at the same buss) need different compressor settings? In my experience, BGV can take far more compression than lead vocals, and a lead guitar might need a quick attack and release to enhance the part's plucking style (if that's what you're dealing with). If you use the same compression on either rhythm and lead guitar or back and lead vocals, can't you miss out on some of the uses of the compressor?
I compress my busses slightly as well, but always after I've gotten the sound I wanted with an initial comp at track level.

Deal with compression for individual tracks on the tracks and use the bus compressor to glue a group of tracks together, the same way you might on the final master bus. In fact, I often do have yet again more compression on the master bus. Little tiny touches just to glue everything together.

Bus compression kind of lets the instruments push each other around which can often work better than trying to smash everything into little boxes so that they can play nice together. Let 'em mosh, damn it!

 

[sausy1981]

I'm curious though.. What do you do when different tracks (that will end up at the same buss) need different compressor settings? In my experience, BGV can take far more compression than lead vocals, and a lead guitar might need a quick attack and release to enhance the part's plucking style (if that's what you're dealing with). If you use the same compression on either rhythm and lead guitar or back and lead vocals, can't you miss out on some of the uses of the compressor?
I compress my busses slightly as well, but always after I've gotten the sound I wanted with an initial comp at track level.

That's exactly what I do, I get the sound I want from each track before sending it to a bus.

 

[GONZO-X]

hello, mcphly?

 

[Jonesey9]

Compression is like painting

If you slap on one big thick coat the end result will be awful

Build it up layer by layer (tracks/busses/master)

Remember also that if you put compressors in series that their ratios will multiply, not add

 

[sausy1981]

hello, mcphly?

Ha ha, Yeah I know what your thinking, That I said I get the track to sound exactly how I want it, What I mean by that is that on the track I use eq and compression and eq to make the instrument sound as good as it can, lets say the guitars for example, and they sound great playing together, I then send them to the guitar bus, then with the whole mix playing I will combat any masking by eq'ing the busses. And the gentle bus compression gels the tracks together...

 

[sausy1981]

Compression is like painting

If you slap on one big thick coat the end result will be awful

Build it up layer by layer (tracks/busses/master)

Remember also that if you put compressors in series that their ratios will multiply, not add

I agree totally, gentle compression at each stage rather than too much compression at one stage...