Using "Inserts" correctly

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tomcat Music
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Tomcat Music

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Hey Crew,

I'm currently setting up my first rack mount system and have a question regarding inserts.
Essentially, I want to set up all my channel inserts to permanently go to the patch bay, from there I will redirect them to the relevant processor.

Question, if I leave the insert leads plugged into the mixer but they reach a dead end at the patch bay will the signal:
A. Ignore the insert send and pass through the channel as normal
B. Head down the insert lead and reach a dead end

Thanks in advance for any advice,

Tomcat
 
Inserts are usually a Send/Receive loop going out of and back into the mixer.

If don't plug anything into the insert at the mixer, it just normals back to itself (keeps the signal looped).
So...if you run the Send/Receive out to a patchbay, you have normal the Send and Receive points at the PB...that way with nothing plugged into them at the PB, it will just loop the signal back into the mixer.
When you actually do insert a piece of gear on that channel, it will break that normal (loop), run the signal into the gear and back out, so then the piece of gear is maintaining the loop.

Depending on the type of PB you use, you can also wire it so that the upper row (Send) can be used to get a split off the channel, but as long as there is nothing in the lower row (Receive) the normal back to the mixer is maintained...but that's if you need that.

I have all my Inserts at the PB, and just have them normalled for basic Send/Receive use. For awhile I pulled out the plugs at the mixer's insert I/O, and ran that way so as not have the signal run to the PB and back for no reason...but now I plugged them back in since my cable run from the mixer to my PBs is only like a couple of feet away, so not a big issue, and I don't need to reach behind the mixer....though I don't use the inserts a whole lot, and instead I just insert in-between my playback deck or DAW and the mixer's input....though again, depends on what I'm hooking up and where I want it to insert, since the inserts are in a different place signal chain-wise....and it's relative to that AFA what approach I use.
 
What patch bay are you using? There should be some sort of diagram on the front with a line from the "top" to the "bottom" connecting the two. That is the "normal." (most are normalled, although a few are straight through---I have several 64 jack Teac's that are straight through, and some have switches to select.)

Also it depends on how you mixer is designed. A lot of mixers have a 1/4" jack that is also "normalled" at the mixer. You insert a "stereo" plug (it isn't "stereo" it is two channels with a common ground) to "break the normal." So you have what looks like a stereo plug on one end and two plugs on the other end that look like mono plugs. You need to know which plug corresponds to the tip and which to the ring, and confirm on you manual which is send and which is receive on your mixer. My mixer has separate send and return jacks, so I send two cables out to the patch bay.
 
Thanks for your advice folks.

My Mixer is a Behringer 2442 so all the inserts are balanced.
The patch bay is a Behringer PX3000 which can be set to normal.

If I have this correct, I can leave my balanced insert cable plugged into the rear of the mixer, with the send plugged in A1 and the return plugged in B1.
Then provided the patch bay is set to "normal", the signal will pass through the patch bay with no interruption and back to the mixer.
Is this all correct?

I should mention, the signal will only be running half a metre in each direction.

Cheers,

Tom
 
Tomcat Music said:
My Mixer is a Behringer 2442 so all the inserts are balanced.
Click to expand...
No they're not.

The rest of your post sounds pretty good. I'd set the PB to "half-normal" if you have the option, with the outputs (sends) over the inputs (returns). That way you can mult (as mentioned above) if you want/need.
 
Tomcat Music said:
My Mixer is a Behringer 2442 so all the inserts are balanced.
Click to expand...

Inserts are by natural unbalanced. You have to use a Y-cable to do a send/return path from the outboard gear to the mixer, and the y-cable makes it unbalanced.
 
What would the benefit of "half normal" be over "normal"?
The signal will either go straight back to the desk or be routed to a compressor.

If the "insert" points on my mixer aren't balanced how is it that they can send and receive through the same point? Do the tip and the ring essentially connect with 2 mono points in the mixer?

Cheers,

Tomcat
 
Because the the tip of the "balanced" end of the Y-cable (the TRS part) becomes an unbalanced send, and the ring becomes an unbalanced return.
 
Awesome, that all makes sense.

Thanks for all your assistance!
 
Tomcat Music said:
What would the benefit of "half normal" be over "normal"?
The signal will either go straight back to the desk or be routed to a compressor.

If the "insert" points on my mixer aren't balanced how is it that they can send and receive through the same point? Do the tip and the ring essentially connect with 2 mono points in the mixer?

Cheers,

Tomcat
Click to expand...
Have a gander at the block diagram.

http://www.behringer.com/assets/2442FX_P0559_S_EN.pdf Behringer, in their infinite UN wisdom no longer include it in the regular manual!

You can get balanced inserts but only on rather more expensive kit than Belringers (not that I am a Behringerphobe! Bloody good value kit IMHO)

Dave.
 
You only get balanced inserts on large expensive boards. For one thing it takes more space, especially when they use XLR connectors. And with XLRs you don't get the switching in the connector so you need room for a switch on the surface. Actually, that's the coolest thing about balanced inserts, the ability to manually bypass them.
 
I say half normal if you can because it gives you more options. Right now you may not see a reason to split the signal at the insert point, but one day you might.
 
Sorry for jumping a little late,
I'm very interested on what has been said here, I'll try to summarize it to see if I got it right.
If I plug a TRS to the mixer, with a Y cable and the TR tips ara A & B, lets say that the tip is connected to A (SEND) and the ring to B (RECIVE), then If Il plug the A to A1 and B to B1 using the back conectors, and the patchbay is set to normal it will work as long as I don't connect anything on the front. If I connect anything on top or bottom front I'll break the connection.
If the Patch bay is a Half Normal If I plug on Top the connection will continue but I'll have splited the signal to use it somewhere else, but if I plug something in to B I'll break the connection.
 
Yep. Looks like you've got it.

Now to make things just a little more complicated and confusing, since that seems to be my specialty. :)

If you have some default chain that you find yourself patching in more often than not, you can actually set it up so that it is normalled to run through that chain, to be over-ridden in exception cases. For example, if you know that channel one is almost always going to be a vocal, and you're almost always going to want Compressor X inserted on it, then you could put the insert send from mixer channel 1 to A1 > Compressor X's input on B1 > Compressor X's output on A2 > insert return on B2. Then, whether you're half- or full-normalled, the vocal mic goes through the compressor unless you patch in something different.

Keep in mind, too, that if you've got something like a compressor that you want available on the patchbay you'll want to either not normal those patchbay modules, or not put the outs over the ins. That would set up a feedback loop, you see. Probably won't hurt anything, you likely won't hear it, but it's best to avoid such things.
 
Well here I preSent my complexity, these are the conections on a TRS patch bay, Number; Equipment, connector, type of signal, type of patch.
As I'm in Mexico the template is in spanish S= Output, E=Input, Beta normalized Mu Non normalized.
The idea is to have the "permanente" connections made on the back but having the posibility of changing them using the front plugs.

1 MPA II S1 ß 25 S-Comp E1 ß HN
2 MPA II S2 ß 26 S-Comp E2 ß HN
3 27 S-Comp E3 ß N
4 28 S-Comp E4 ß N
5 S-Comp S3 ß 29 N
6 S-Comp S4 ß 30 N
7 TC02 S1 ß 31 N
8 TC02 S2 ß 32 N
9 US 1800 S1 ß 33 HP60 EA1 ß HN
10 US 1800 S2 ß 34 HP60 EA2 ß HN
11 S-Comp S1 ß 35 US 1800 11 ß HN
12 s-Comp S2 ß 36 US 1800 12 ß HN
13 37 TVA-1 Line
14 38 HP60 EB1 ß T
15 39 HP60 EB2 ß T
16 40 US 1800 13 ß N
17 41 US 1800 14 ß N
18 42
19 43 TC02 E1 µ N
20 44 TC02 E2 µ N
21 TVA-1 S1 ß 45
22 TVA-1 S2 ß 46
23 US 1800 S3 ß 47
24 US 1800 S4 ß 48
ß Balanceado µ No balanceado
 
SORRY the table presentation was lost so the sequence is #,Equipment, Output, Normal/Not,#,Equipment, Input, Normal/Not, Type of patch.
If two numbers are together that point is empty.
As for the equipment I think they specified enough.
 
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