Upgrading from entry-level monitors... concerns

[Cmpsr]

I have a pair of Alesis M1 Active Mk2s. I'd like to upgrade them to a more accurate reference monitor. Unfortunately, my monitoring environment is the corner of a 11' x 10' bedroom, and from what I've read, an 8" near-field may not be the best solution for this. Therefore, I'm leaning towards another 6.5 solution that DOESN'T hype bass response like the M1s. My spending limit is about $1000 for the pair.

So far I'm considering the Yorkville YSM1P, Mackie HR624, and Event TR6. Would these speakers definitely be an upgrade over the M1s? If so, which would you suggest?

 

[kylen]

I've got a set of those Alesis M1 actives and I'm about to carve out a budget for an upgrade. I think they are entry level in price and most likely performance.

Before I get new near fields though I'm spending some time characterizing what I have and the performance.

The pieces concerning performance I'm focusing on are:

1. DAC and associated signal path from computer to speaker (includes cables and connections).

2. Speaker

3. Room

What I've found so far has cleaned up my monitoring situation a lot.

Number 1 - using an Audigy2 soundcard for monitoring is an absolute mistake - even the digital I/O is 'dirty' so that thing has now been disabled. I thought it would be 'transparent' but it re-samples to 48KHz for some dumb reason. Now I'm using an audiophile2496 and have a very noticable improvement in headroom and clarity.

Number 3 - The room I have has modes and diffraction problems (like any room has). I've been clearing this up using OC703 fiberglass absorption equivalent along with a lot of research. Moving speakers around, moving the listening position around, adding acoustic treatments, and utilizing speaker EQ all add up to discovering the maximal performance a speaker can give. The M1's themselves don't have speaker EQ switches like other brands so you can't adjust the bass that way. You can plug the bass ports though as Alesis recommends if they're next to a wall.

I'm also using a measuring mic (ECM8000) and various FFT spectrum tools to lay out plots of the 'freq curve' at my listening position and around the room.

De-coupling my speakers from the room and speaker stands is a top priority to a good sounding system for mastering [in the future, need a few more upgrades first].

Until I get those things under control any speaker upgrade would be a waste of money for me - I think I'm about there though. Music is beginning to sound very enjoyable - detail, stereo field, etc. are coming thru - now that I've got them set up so the ROOM isn't hyping my speakers ! I listen at about 80-85dB SPL (determined by a radio shack SPL meter) at approx 1 meter distance, maybe even a few inches less.

One other thing - since the speakers don't have electronic EQ adjustments, like other models, I added a behringer ultracurve DEQ2496 to bend curves or add any hype I might want.

So anyway, you probably have done all that already - if not maybe try getting your speakers out into the room a bit. I think the corner of a room is going to hype most anything you put in there.

kylen

 

[Garry Sharp]

Yeah, the bass response is most definitely seriously hyped (apparently not so on the passive version). As I learn more it's beginning to seriously hack me off - plugging the bass ports helps but you're basically shooting in the dark.

Lacking the budget for a proper upgrade, would using an active crossover and a sub help?

 

[ryanlikestorock]

If there's any way you can get out of the corner of the room, you'll probably notice a huge difference in bass. The corners are really difficult to control.

 

[Cmpsr]

Thanks for your replys...

kylen let me know what monitor you decide on. It sounds like you've explored every path possible to make the M1s work. One thing I do is flatten the frequency response using an ECM8000 mic about 3" from the center of the speaker. It squashes my first two room modes so the room doesn't have as much effect. Plus I monitor at low volumes. It's not the best thing to do but it definitely makes the monitors more mix-usable in the low range.

I don't know... maybe there's no reason to upgrade right now with this scenario I have. If I knew that $1000 would definitely improve my monitor setup now, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I guess that's why I'm wondering if the speakers I listed are good alternatives?

 

[kylen]

Cmpsr - is that a typo 3" - do you mean 3 feet ?

To get more of the room out of the picture you can shorten the distance between your ears and monitors, likewise measuring mic and speakers. The measuring mic should be at the same spot you put your ears. Getting too close though can ruin the stereo field.

I've measured from 36" down to 12" to see how the effect of the room looks in a spectrum. I used the minirator or Cool Edit Pro to send both white noise (each freq has equal power) and pink noise (each octave has equal power) out of my monitors at 85db SPL. Then I watch the spectrum (8192 points - not 1/3 or 1/6 octave) in Ozone (averaging decay 1-3 sec, peak hold 1 sec).

I finally settled on a listening position within approx 25" to 30" it varies. I also put some 703 behind the speakers. Finally I have created my own 'hype' curve using a behringer DEQ2496.

I imagine I will be using these monitors for some time (budget issues - don't you know!) and will continually adjust all of the above to get mixes to translate well to the rest of the world.

Things sound very improved but I've only heard a Genelec and Mackie in a showroom, not in a pristine studio, so I don't know how good a mixing/mastering studio can sound yet. Like I said though - just doing the things I mentioned and the details are now very noticeable.

kylen

 

[Cmpsr]

No I meant three inches... I prefer to eq the speaker, not the room/speaker combination.

I've found that because of my room modes, I have to cut too much of the M1's low frequency response if I put the mic at ear level and distance, plus any readings below 250Hz are usually inaccurate. I know the room has a big impact on the sound but I monitor at extremely low levels... about 2' from each speaker in a perfect triangle arrangement.

Tell you what.. I'll run some short and long distance RTA tests and print out the +/- dB filters I use to achieve at flatter mxing environment. The only EQ I have at my disposal is a Rane ME15 stereo 2/3 octave unit so I'm not getting it perfectly flat.... hence the need for buying a better quality monitor!

 

[kylen]

Cmpsr - Whatever works for you, you can only use what you have, same with me - I've got an upgrade list that's pretty long !

Here's a possible idea. Most music stores have a 30-day return policy in the States here, some mailing order stores do also. Take $200 and buy a behringer DEQ2496 or some other good sounding RTA/Parametric. Dbx has one too, driverack or studiorack - something like that. If that doesn't help exchange the EQ for your monitor upgrade within the month!

Anyway, if you use a para - with the behringer you can set octave widths of 1/10 down to 1/60 if you wanted to experiment with trying to get a better tool around a 'room mode' peak and push it down a bit. You'd have to fight with it less though if you creatively re-arranged your room to get out of the corner and into the room - I've tried that and it works.

I guess you could also try to build a couple of bass traps and stick one in the corner and one next to the other speaker if you're going to stay there - I haven't tried bass traps yet. Some folks say broadband, other folks say tune a tube trap. It depends and it can take a combination of things is my conclusion. The problem with speakers next to walls is that the bass (< 300Hz) wraps around behind the enclosure, bounces off the nearest barrier (the wall), and travels back out to slam you in the face - a bit out of phase so your ear may be in a peak or valley. You know that it sounds like.

What type RTA do you have ? If it's 1/3 octave you can get better resolution by recording into your computer and use the free Inspector (Elemental audio - VST) to 'see' the bass peaks while you move the mic (your ears) around at the 2' listening position. That's where the sound has to get to anyway. The 1/3 and 1/6 octave analyzers can sometimes average out certain peaks and valleys - I've seen that already.

Keep us posted - I'm picking up tips too ! Sounds fun - oh, yeah same fun I'm having ! I'm not going fo flat, I don't have that much 'control' - just something that translates well.

kylen

 

[Cmpsr]

Kylen - You're right about the room mode response. Without bass traps it's near impossible to get control of standing waves. I think I came up with a solution though that'll work well with my environment. Garry's earlier suggestion got me thinking about this alternative...

The Blue Sky ProDesk 2.1 is a pretty well rated sat/sub system. It ports frequencies below 80Hz to a sub enclosure you can put anywhere (in my case, probably away from corners!). It runs about a $1000 at most music stores. I'm gonna check it out at Sam Ash tomorrow.

http://www.abluesky.com/p_s_gb/p3s2.html

Oh yeah, I'm using a SpectraPlus FFT 1/3 octave RTA software demo right now. Its does a pretty good job. I'll let you know how things go tomorrow.

 

[TexRoadkill]

The Blue Skys are supposed to be pretty sweet but if you don't fix your room you will still have the same problems at the mix position.

 

[Cmpsr]

Hey Tex..

Yes you're right... and one of the reasons I'd like to upgrade to these is so I can eliminate EQ from the chain and treat the room accordingly. My first room mode is at 51Hz... a killer right now with the M1s. With the Blue Sky SAT 5s, I'd be able to have enough space to position a trap right in back of the left speaker and at the opposite corner as well. Plus, since they roll off at 80Hz, I'd see less impact from them being in the corner of the room. Definitely more control than I have right now.

 

[Cmpsr]

Went to Sam Ash today... they had one of their "V.I.P." sales. In the flyer, they had a $100 rebate on the Blue Sky 2.1 monitors... my luck huh? Unfortunately, this particular store didn't carry them and the nearest one that did was 40 miles away in Hollywood, CA. So the salesperson said I should call the main office to see if they'd honor the price... they did!

So the good news is that I got them for $899 + $40 shipping (2 boxes) but the bad news is that I didn't get to audition them. I hated doing that but the reviews for these have been very good. Plus I can return them locally if I'm not satisfied. Thanks for all your help guys!

Kylen - I hope you're able to find a solution for your room. You may or may not be familiar with realtraps.com. I plan on getting a few of the company's MiniTraps to help soften the subwoofer room effect. Good luck and nice talkin' with ya!

 

[tmix]

Hey Cmpsr

I am very interested in hearing your take on the Blue Skys when you get them. I have been very interested myself, but have failed to see many real reviews.

tom@tmixstudios.com

 

[BlueSky]

Went to Sam Ash today... they had one of their "V.I.P." sales. In the flyer, they had a $100 rebate on the Blue Sky 2.1 monitors... my luck huh? Unfortunately, this particular store didn't carry them and the nearest one that did was 40 miles away in Hollywood, CA. So the salesperson said I should call the main office to see if they'd honor the price... they did!

So the good news is that I got them for $899 + $40 shipping (2 boxes) but the bad news is that I didn't get to audition them. I hated doing that but the reviews for these have been very good. Plus I can return them locally if I'm not satisfied. Thanks for all your help guys!

Kylen - I hope you're able to find a solution for your room. You may or may not be familiar with realtraps.com. I plan on getting a few of the company's MiniTraps to help soften the subwoofer room effect. Good luck and nice talkin' with ya!

I just thought I would post really quickly.

First, thank you for taking them time to seek out our product and for ordering a system, we very much appreciate your business.

Second, I am wondering if you could let me know which SamAsh you went to that didn't have our product on display? I would like to follow up with this store and make sure that they get a system for display.

Lastly, please follow these links that will help you setup and optimize your system once you get it.

www.abluesky.com/subplacement - an expanded explanation of how to place your subwoofer.
www.abluesky.com/calibration - a new expanded calibration process for those that have an SPL meter (although for a 2.1 system, the calibration method detailed in the manual works well also).
www.abluesky.com/fullrange - an explanation of our 2.1 full-range monitoring concept.

I hope you enjoy the system, and if you have any questions or comments, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,

Pascal Sijen
Co-Founder
Blue Sky International
www.abluesky.com
pascal@abluesky.com

 

[kylen]

Kylen - I hope you're able to find a solution for your room. You may or may not be familiar with realtraps.com. I plan on getting a few of the company's MiniTraps to help soften the subwoofer room effect. Good luck and nice talkin' with ya!

Thanks Cmpsr ! Yes I'm using a bit of Ethans' valuable info along with some other stuff from John Sayer, SAE, and looking at different trap designs. I've got a bunch of 703 that an insulation company was going to pitch out so now I've just got to make some cool traps.

I like that Blue Sky 2.1 idea - that's exactly what I'm trying to cobble together more or less untill I get my upgrade money.

After sitting right at a mode last night doing more listening and fine tuning and measuring it was quite fatiguing - like going up in a jet and the pressurization begins to kick in...argh !@#!

Good luck with your speakers - sounds like a solution - keep us posted !
kylen

 

[distortedrumble]

so about those blue sky monitors.... do you feel that they were worth the price?

 

[Cmpsr]

Tmix,

I'll start a new thread next week to give you and others my opinions of the ProDesk 2.1 system. I assume that they'll be very positive. In the meantime, go to http://www.abluesky.com/p_s_gb/p2s6s1.html and read the online magazine reviews. Those, coupled with a search of this forum, really sold me on them.

distortedrumble,

I haven't received them yet but I will comment next week after they arrive. I can tell you that I've not encountered one single negative comment about these online... and I've done a ton of research! Also, they just got voted the best "new product" monitor speaker in the Jan. 2004 edition of Electronic Musician... I'd say that's pretty compelling!

God I sound like I work for these guys!

 

[Cmpsr]

Blue Sky (Pascal),

Thanks for your interest in my purchase. I'm really looking forward to receiving them. The Ontario Mills Sam Ash store in Ontario, CA unfortunately didn't have them either on display or in stock (though the salesman told me he wished they did so he could check them out himself!) I've never seen them displayed there in the past. In fact, they seem to push a lot of the "under $500" systems with the Mackies and Genelecs being their main high-end component.

According to their computer database, the Hollywood and Canoga Park stores had only one set of 2.1s left and they were display models.. which I wasn't interested in. I would imagine that was due to their inability to keep them in inventory very long.. these and the System Ones are very popular in and around the LA area. At least I was able to get some at a reasonable price and not drive an hour to do so.

Thanks for the optimization links. I will definitely use them. Your company seems to really go above and beyond the normal corporate interaction with its customers and I appreciate that.

Jon

 

[BlueSky]

Blue Sky (Pascal),

Thanks for your interest in my purchase. I'm really looking forward to receiving them. The Ontario Mills Sam Ash store in Ontario, CA unfortunately didn't have them either on display or in stock (though the salesman told me he wished they did so he could check them out himself!) I've never seen them displayed there in the past. In fact, they seem to push a lot of the "under $500" systems with the Mackies and Genelecs being their main high-end component.

According to their computer database, the Hollywood and Canoga Park stores had only one set of 2.1s left and they were display models.. which I wasn't interested in. I would imagine that was due to their inability to keep them in inventory very long.. these and the System Ones are very popular in and around the LA area. At least I was able to get some at a reasonable price and not drive an hour to do so.

Thanks for the optimization links. I will definitely use them. Your company seems to really go above and beyond the normal corporate interaction with its customers and I appreciate that.

Jon

Thank you for the information. We will work with SamAsh corporate to get these locations inventory for display and stock.

Good luck with the system, and again let me know if you have any comments or questions.

Cheers!

 

[Cmpsr]

Kylen,

Glad to hear you've researched Ethan's site and the possibility of making your own traps. I'm pretty handy with a saw myself so if you come across any "how to" sites for smaller traps, let me know.

Yeah, the Blue Sky system seemed to fit my mixing predicament pretty well. I thought about buying a more versatile RTA setup but knowing the M1s were strictly entry-level, I didn't really wanna throw more money at them. They're not bad speakers. When I attended a recording school in LA, they were everywhere in the smaller project rooms. However they're not very truthful with the dual-ported design and for us with smaller rooms, they can be beasts! My two cents...

I'll let you know how the ProDesk sounds in comparison to those and other speakers I've auditioned. Again, thanks for your help.

Jon