Upgraded my setup and am very disappointed.

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NashBackslash

NashBackslash

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(Warning: The following is a rather angry rant and I apologize upfront if reading this makes you upset but I just have to say this because it is frustrating me)

Hello all. I've recently moved my studio and decided to increase my input count. I've sold what I had (a Pentium 4 HT 3.2 GHz, Intel D945P motherboard, MOTU 828 MKII) and purchased a Pentium Core 2 Duo E6600, Intel D965LT, MOTU 24i/o PCI-e and upgraded my RAM to 2 GB @ DDR2 667.

I've been using my older setup for almost 3 years and never, EVER had any problems with it. No pops and clicks and all that bullshit. I thought with better equipment, things would only get better. But that is far from the truth.

Since I believe that the E6600 is a pretty beefed up processor I thought I'd monitor my inputs through my DAW (Sonar 6) instead of the hardware zero latency monitoring. I don't have much outboard gear so I really want to do this so that I can insert a software reverb for the drummer to monitor, for example. Or maybe use some software guitar amp sims.

So for my first tracking session using my new stuff, we were working on drums and I utilized 12 tracks. The first few takes I was pretty happy because it seemed to be running smoothly. Then I heard a popping sound while the drummer was tracking. When I played it back at the position where I heard the pop, it wasn't there. "So this is what 'pops and clicks' is all about", I thought. I decided to ignore it.

It only got worse from there to the point where it is annoying as fuck. The thing that pisses me off is that the CPU indicator in my DAW barely hits 50% and even if it does, it's only for a split second, and even then for only one CPU.

I went on to open the MOTU audio console and tried a bunch of things. I definitely couldn't increase the buffer because the latency it produces is very distracting for the performer. The lowest I can set it to without playback sounding like crap is 128 samples. I tried 64 and 32 but it just wasn't playable anymore.

Then I tried some other stuff like updating the Intel's BIOS and chipset drivers. I also tried updating the MOTU's drivers. I then went as far as to opening my box and switched the PCI-e 424 card to another slot just to see if it makes a difference. But no go.

Then I thought, "okay guys, fuck it with this DAW input monitoring, let's just monitor from the hardware". Although the band was kind of disappointed (the software equalizing, compressing and effects really energized the whole session) they agreed.

Much to our horror, the popping and clicking is still there even without the real-time monitoring. What the fuck?

I've read rave reviews about the E6600 and this bullshit is all I'm getting. I've wasted many hours trying to figure my system out (even in the presence of my clients; while they were nice enough to understand that I've recently upgraded and crap is to be expected, it doesn't really look nice on me, plus I've spent quite a bit of money upgrading, I don't need this shit!) and I can't take this anymore.

I really want this to work. I don't believe the MOTU is crap. The 828 MKII never failed me. And I definitely don't believe the Core 2 Duo is crap too.

Anyway, I come here with this post seeking advice and help. I'm hearing any reading all these success stories about people with dual processors and insane stuff like .1 millisecond latency and the like. I've done a great deal trying to optimize my box for DAWs eventhough I don't really feel I have to (I mean come on, it's 2007, and it IS a dual core processor after all; I feel all that tweaking is so year 2000).

This is my first time using a PCI (PCI-e, to be precise) interface; before this the only experience I've had is with Firewire. Back then I had to do stuff like downgrade my Windows XP firewire driver to SP1 or something like that. I understand that PCI is superior to Fireware and I can only imagine PCI-e to be better (I mean, the good graphics cards are all on PCI-e, right? That's gotta be some fast shit).

Thanks for reading this. I'm sorry again for the angry tone of this post but put yourself in my shoes; I don't have much money and had to work my ass off to purchase my upgrades. I've spent sleepless nights researching and reading reviews before buying the stuff. I've spent time that I will never get back to decide that this setup is what I want. Then when I finally get a hold of it, I get shit thrown my way.
 
Maybe it's nothing to do with the new computer/motu. Maybe it your monitors, or something between the pc and them? Maybe moving everything around has damaged something?
 
More tracks, more disk activity, harder to keep up.. maybe.

Can you adjust the disk i/o buffering in your DAW? Also, I assume you have all the XP tweaks in and DMA enabled, etc...
 
So far the symptoms are:

Popping and clicking (during record only?)

Few questions:

What software are you running?
All legit programs?
Have you tried recording one track and does it pop/click then?
Have you tried a different program and see it happens aswell?
What hdd setup are you using? Sata or ide? Raid?
What cluster size are you disks formatted to?

Try changing the variables of the issue and narrow it down to a software or hardware issue. Then from there specifically which program or what hardware is the culprit.

I can totally understand your frustration. With that in mind, you have to expect initial issues when you put hardware and software together from a range of vendors. When you buy pre built "audio" pc's all the testing is done behind the scenes.

Go here

http://www.musicxp.net/

Allocate at least several hours to reading it and another few hours implementing and testing. As i said i understand your frustation, but getting an audio pc working can sometimes be easy, but throw in the wrong chipset, or registry setting and it can be a matter of just working it out and thorough testing.
 
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Motu drivers can be notoriously shitty with some windows machines and chipsets. They aren't much help either since MOTU only has real support for MAC users.
 
^^ I was going to say that, but he wrote that he wanted more inputs, so in a sense it was "broke". Once i worked out some bugs and hardware conflicts my music pc's been going beautifully for 3 years on a p4 2.8ghz. I'm not changing a thing til i can really see a major benefit. I'd rather make music than trouble shoot pcs :)

NashBackslash, don't lose hope! Let us know the results of your testing, and we'll see if we can get to the bottom of it.
 
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NashBackslash said:
Then I thought, "okay guys, fuck it with this DAW input monitoring, let's just monitor from the hardware". Although the band was kind of disappointed (the software equalizing, compressing and effects really energized the whole session) they agreed.

Much to our horror, the popping and clicking is still there even without the real-time monitoring. What the fuck?

If you're monitoring in hardware, that is what is generally called real-time monitoring. Monitoring through the computer is decidedly not real-time. :)

If you're monitoring with real-time (hardware input to output without going through software) and you're still getting pops, then either the problem is with your computer's playback speed not being able to keep up with the tracks (in which case my first guess would be a flaky hard drive, a flaky ATA cable, or a craptastic ATA controller design on the logic board) or is with the actual box itself. It is very unlikely that the problem is anything wrong with the card.

To figure out which part is causing your grief, try recording a bunch of test tracks with output to the MOTU disabled entirely. Record a lot of tracks over and over. If you never get pops that way, it's probably a playback problem. Try playing without recording and see if you get the pops eventually just to confirm it. If you do get pops while recording with output disabled, it is probably a problem with the external box of the MOTU or with something else in your recording chain.

Can you see the pops on your meters? Are they on the inputs or outputs? Are you using any outboard gear? Condenser mics that might have gotten some moisture exposure, perhaps?
 
Aren't computers fun! :p

above post brings up a good thought. It could also be a slow HDD. Does yours spin at at least 7200rpm? Also I know buffer settings with the motu I had were extremely important to it functioning propperly. Also if you have Media Center I've had bad luck with it and a few interfaces. XP with SP2 seems to be the best itteration of windows for recording I've come across.
 
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mrT said:
Aren't computers fun! :p

above post brings up a good thought. It could also be a slow HDD. Does yours spin at at least 72000rpm? Also I know buffer settings with the motu I had were extremely important to it functioning propperly. Also if you have Media Center I've had bad luck with it and a few interfaces. XP with SP2 seems to be the best itteration of windows for recording I've come across.

how do you know what buffer settings you should use for your hard drive? i'm having some of the same problems when tracking live input and in playback, but my direct playback is fine.
 
What is your software using to track with?
you may want to check out your software's preferences for hardware setup. Probably not using correct/optimum drivers within' the software itself.


Or just up the buffer, and monitor in real time.


Might also try and reinstall that piece of software too. A friend of mine, had Acid 6 & the m-audio 24/96 and was getting pops and clicks, even when everything was correct, after upgrading his whole system (he was running a duron 1.0ghz and now dual 3ghz pentium d).
Anyways before we even open up acid 6, we tried it on acid 5, and it worked, and he left it at that.
 
Hey everyone. Thanks for the replies. I printed this thread out before heading to the studio (I have no internet connection at the studio) so that I could try out everything that's suggested here.

However before heading off, I decided to use the black magic... er I mean "Search" feature at Cakewalk's forum to see if anything useful comes up. One thread by Ethan Winer sparked my interest.

He was talking about how his brand new dual core processor isn't doing what he thought was supposed to do. I gathered from that thread (and consequently others related to it) that apparently Sonar's "use multiprocessing engine" feature works for some dual core owners but doesn't for others.

I also stumbled upon Cakewalk's MOTU 24i/o setup tips on the site which basically recommends using the WDM drivers instead of ASIO.

Taking mental notes, I quickly went to the studio. The first thing I tried were the above two.

Guess what? That fixed it. Period.

I am now able to lower my soundcard's audio buffer to 32 (the lowest it can go) and I can monitor all 24 of my inputs through my DAW without pops and clicks. Sonar reported latency as 0.7 milliseconds which is the lowest latency I have ever achieved in my entire life. I was also able to plugin-rape my project and do some complex bus routing (we had 3 separate headphone mixes) and it would *VERY RARELY* hiccup, like 1 out of 10000 chances. It definitely wasn't as distracting as before.

I turned the multiprocessing engine back on just to see what happened and Sonar crashed the first time. :P The second time I tried it, it was doing the popping and clicking so badly, it would have become music to a drunk hippy.

It was a weird solution, DEFINITELY wouldn't have crossed my mind but my problem is solved. Me and my clients were finally able to make music!

I read my original post again and god, do I look immature. I guess that's what frustration does to you. I literally broke down because I thought I've wasted my money at first.

Thanks for the support and replies guys! God bless you all!

(if you don't believe in god then have a good one or something)
 
I've heard that before: that ASIO is not good in Sonar. They didn't support VST for the longest time either (do they now?). I think Cakewalk has got a beef with Steinberg and don't like to adopt their standards.
 
NashBackslash said:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the replies. I printed this thread out before heading to the studio (I have no internet connection at the studio) so that I could try out everything that's suggested here.

However before heading off, I decided to use the black magic... er I mean "Search" feature at Cakewalk's forum to see if anything useful comes up. One thread by Ethan Winer sparked my interest.

He was talking about how his brand new dual core processor isn't doing what he thought was supposed to do. I gathered from that thread (and consequently others related to it) that apparently Sonar's "use multiprocessing engine" feature works for some dual core owners but doesn't for others.

I also stumbled upon Cakewalk's MOTU 24i/o setup tips on the site which basically recommends using the WDM drivers instead of ASIO.

Taking mental notes, I quickly went to the studio. The first thing I tried were the above two.

Guess what? That fixed it. Period.

I am now able to lower my soundcard's audio buffer to 32 (the lowest it can go) and I can monitor all 24 of my inputs through my DAW without pops and clicks. Sonar reported latency as 0.7 milliseconds which is the lowest latency I have ever achieved in my entire life. I was also able to plugin-rape my project and do some complex bus routing (we had 3 separate headphone mixes) and it would *VERY RARELY* hiccup, like 1 out of 10000 chances. It definitely wasn't as distracting as before.

I turned the multiprocessing engine back on just to see what happened and Sonar crashed the first time. :P The second time I tried it, it was doing the popping and clicking so badly, it would have become music to a drunk hippy.

It was a weird solution, DEFINITELY wouldn't have crossed my mind but my problem is solved. Me and my clients were finally able to make music!

I read my original post again and god, do I look immature. I guess that's what frustration does to you. I literally broke down because I thought I've wasted my money at first.

Thanks for the support and replies guys! God bless you all!

(if you don't believe in god then have a good one or something)


I just love happy endings.
 
NashBackslash said:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the replies. I printed this thread out before heading to the studio (I have no internet connection at the studio) so that I could try out everything that's suggested here.

However before heading off, I decided to use the black magic... er I mean "Search" feature at Cakewalk's forum to see if anything useful comes up. One thread by Ethan Winer sparked my interest.

He was talking about how his brand new dual core processor isn't doing what he thought was supposed to do. I gathered from that thread (and consequently others related to it) that apparently Sonar's "use multiprocessing engine" feature works for some dual core owners but doesn't for others.

I also stumbled upon Cakewalk's MOTU 24i/o setup tips on the site which basically recommends using the WDM drivers instead of ASIO.

Taking mental notes, I quickly went to the studio. The first thing I tried were the above two.

Guess what? That fixed it. Period.

I am now able to lower my soundcard's audio buffer to 32 (the lowest it can go) and I can monitor all 24 of my inputs through my DAW without pops and clicks. Sonar reported latency as 0.7 milliseconds which is the lowest latency I have ever achieved in my entire life. I was also able to plugin-rape my project and do some complex bus routing (we had 3 separate headphone mixes) and it would *VERY RARELY* hiccup, like 1 out of 10000 chances. It definitely wasn't as distracting as before.

I turned the multiprocessing engine back on just to see what happened and Sonar crashed the first time. :P The second time I tried it, it was doing the popping and clicking so badly, it would have become music to a drunk hippy.

It was a weird solution, DEFINITELY wouldn't have crossed my mind but my problem is solved. Me and my clients were finally able to make music!

I read my original post again and god, do I look immature. I guess that's what frustration does to you. I literally broke down because I thought I've wasted my money at first.

Thanks for the support and replies guys! God bless you all!

(if you don't believe in god then have a good one or something)
Will have a good one then. Glad you got it sorted!
 
Well, eff the effing thing, and boot it up the effing effhole until the effing thing bleeds to death from its effing motherboard. Eff it. Eff 'em all.
 
See how it runs in reaper at low latencies. Sonar's software monitoring can be TRICKY to set up, and especially with MOTU stuff.

BUT if you can get it going OK in reaper, chances are youll be able to tweak sonar to get somewhat similar performance
 
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