Understanding the levels in Reaper

[Armistice]

Hi...

Finding the whole question of what levels to record / mix / master at a bit more complicated in Reaper than my good old stand alone machine.

Just want to check I'm doing, approximately the right thing as I have the first real attempt at recording a tune nearing completion.

TRACKING
So, individual tracks, the track slider is by default set to 0, and I adjust the gain on my preamp/interface so that the signal's coming in somewhere -18 to -12ish, ... I'm not recording stuff that has massive transient peaks, but the individual tracks are peaking somewhere in that range, although if it's over a bit, I don't sweat it.

MIXING
All those individual tracks add up, so as I mix, raise and lower individual track volumes via the track sliders, or various plug-ins, I generally end up with a mix that, depending upon which tracks I started with, is going well over 0 on the Reaper floating master meter, but it's not hitting +12, or whatever the maximum is. I don't hear any clipping. The floating master meter is working on its default setting, incidentally.

Now I understand this is too hot a level for mastering, so at this stage I can either reduce the individual track volumes via their sliders (painful) or reduce the overall level via the master slider (easy) until the mix is at a suitable level for mastering - that being what, exactly? I'm reading -6 in various places.

MASTERING
Having a correctly levelled mix I can then do whatever I need to get a 2 track master, that's probably another topic... I'm mainly concerned with getting the "pre-master level" where it should be for a master to be done... either on Reaper or by a real mastering engineer.

How are my assumptions?

Cheers

 

[Mr Clean]

When I'm mixing I usually CTRL+A and bring all the faders down (off) then I start with the Kick Drum and get that peaking around -10/-12. Then mix the rest to that. You can CTRL+A and bring all the faders down in increments together to lower the overall volume

I track the same as you. From what I've read, it's the best way. I aim for a level off anything between -18 &-10 tp leave a bit of room for each track. As long as it's in that ballpark area all is good I think.

Mastering I know nothing about so I'll leave that for others. I just get as good a mix as I can and then use a little compression, limiter to bring up the levels.

 

[RAMI]

Just keep in mind that you can't mix "too low". So, to be safe, what I do is start with my overhead faders at -14 (don't know why I chose that, but that's where I always go), which usually makes me put my kik at at about -12. From there, I bring everything esle in. My pre-mastered mixes usually peak as low as -10db. It doesn't really matter, the main thing is to stay away from peaking above 0db, but there's no reason to even get close to that.

 

[Armistice]

I see...

As I use MIDI drums I guess my starting point is whatever that level tends to automatically set itself at when I get the kit imported and programmed... and I never really looked to see what that was... I tend to rely, at this stage, upon whatever Addictive throws up by way of a rough mix as a starting point and never "build" the drum mix from scratch as you guys appear to be doing.. which is probably why I end up with my rough mix hitting well above 0 at peaks.

No reason I can't follow a similar process, however, with the various tracks from Addictive. So I might try that tonight with the track I'm working on. Null everything and start with the kick at -12 and see how we go!

I reall must read the manual! Didn't even thing of a select all / reduce all faders move, but that would obviously be an easy way to get the total level of the mix down... lol!

Cheers

 

[gecko zzed]

I often start with a drum track as well. I usually drag it down some ways from its starting level, knowing that by the time everything else gets piled in, it's all going to get pretty hot.

I am a group addict, so I have groups everywhere. For example, I group all the vocals together, then within that, I group the backing vocals. Likewise I have groups for instruments (e.g. guitars), then a group for the whole 'band'.

That way, if things get too hot, I just shift either (or both) of two faders ('band' or 'vocals'). That way I can keep the mix and the relative levels of instruments intact.

 

[Armistice]

Hmmm...groups... haven't worked them out yet! I get the concept, but not sure of the execution...

I've just redone my mix, starting with drums at a reasonable level and I find the mix is now peaking about -6 ish, so that's a much healthier result with plenty of headroom, rather than the +6 it was probably hitting before... lesson learnt.

 

[JimmyS1969]

I don't know Reaper, but it should be the same for all DAW's (it records at 32-bit float right?). As long as you don't clip your master (stereo out, whatever it is called in your DAW), you really can't cause clipping internally within your DAW. There are Plugin's that expect an input level of -12dBFS ,to work well (and can digitally clip themselves), but for the most part, you are safe pushing the levels on any track/bus, after the input was recorded at a optimal level. Though, this is not necessary to do, and not recommended, it often happens with tracks with strong transients like drums. You can hit 0dBFS or more, on a group/bus channel, just don't clip the main out. Complete destruction when you hit the output bus with a signal over 0dBFS. That is where it hurts.

 

[jonny deep]

Hmmm...groups... haven't worked them out yet! I get the concept, but not sure of the execution...

They're very easy to do. On each track you can click the folder icon (in the default skin of v4 it's at the very bottom right of the track in the left hand track list) to cycle through folder options. Click once to make a track a folder (group buss), then click again to make it the last item in a folder group, clicking a third time will clear folder options for that track. So, to make a group buss, you create a track that will be the group bus; drag it to the position above the tracks you want it to be the group of; click the folder icon to make it a folder track; then click the folder icon of the last track you want in the group a couple of times, thus removing all below tracks from the group. It can be best to do this while your project isn't running - pulling tracks in and out of groups can make some funny noises, especially if you're using ReaVerb on some tracks/groups.

 

[Mr Clean]

Hmmm...groups... haven't worked them out yet! I get the concept, but not sure of the execution...

Me neither.

I've just redone my mix, starting with drums at a reasonable level and I find the mix is now peaking about -6 ish, so that's a much healthier result with plenty of headroom, rather than the +6 it was probably hitting before... lesson learnt.

Result

They're very easy to do. On each track you can click the folder icon (in the default skin of v4 it's at the very bottom right of the track in the left hand track list) to cycle through folder options. Click once to make a track a folder (group buss), then click again to make it the last item in a folder group, clicking a third time will clear folder options for that track. So, to make a group buss, you create a track that will be the group bus; drag it to the position above the tracks you want it to be the group of; click the folder icon to make it a folder track; then click the folder icon of the last track you want in the group a couple of times, thus removing all below tracks from the group. It can be best to do this while your project isn't running - pulling tracks in and out of groups can make some funny noises, especially if you're using ReaVerb on some tracks/groups.

I have played around with them before but it's always been something I've neglected to spend any time on. I'll give this a go later. Cheers

 

[ashcat_lt]

Yes, Reaper does 32 bit float. While I did one time manage to get something loud enough to shut down the audio engine, I don't think it actually ever clips internally. That is, the "physical" output (whether it be an interface or a file) won't put out anything over 0db. You can, though, have the master bus peaking at +32dbfs, and pull the master fader down to -32.1db, and end up with perfectly clean output.

That's a bit of a mess, though.

 

[mjbphotos]

Yeah, groups definitely helps you get the overall levels right. I'll usually have vocals in a group, backgroups vocals in a subgroup of that (but sometimes separately), instruments in a group that includes EZ Drummer, guitars in a subgroup, etc.
I've found that the stock mixing leveles in EZD aren't close to good, I suspect the same for AD. Usually the first things I have to reduce are the snare and hi-hat. These are getting picked up by the overheards, so only need a little reinforcement.

 

[VomitHatSteve]

They're very easy to do. On each track you can click the folder icon (in the default skin of v4 it's at the very bottom right of the track in the left hand track list) to cycle through folder options. Click once to make a track a folder (group buss), then click again to make it the last item in a folder group, clicking a third time will clear folder options for that track. So, to make a group buss, you create a track that will be the group bus; drag it to the position above the tracks you want it to be the group of; click the folder icon to make it a folder track; then click the folder icon of the last track you want in the group a couple of times, thus removing all below tracks from the group. It can be best to do this while your project isn't running - pulling tracks in and out of groups can make some funny noises, especially if you're using ReaVerb on some tracks/groups.

You can also create a new track and then just drag existing tracks into to make it into a group.
(i.e. grab the child tracks in the left bar, drag them beneath the parent track until the preview cursor thing "tabs" in below the parent, then drop them.)
(With my 36+ track mixes, groups are pretty necessary! )

 

[Mr Clean]

You can also create a new track and then just drag existing tracks into to make it into a group.
(i.e. grab the child tracks in the left bar, drag them beneath the parent track until the preview cursor thing "tabs" in below the parent, then drop them.)
(With my 36+ track mixes, groups are pretty necessary! )

Cheers Steve, that was easy!