Two Mic's on Vocals For Natural Stereo?

[Lionel_Hutz]

Okay, what I know when micing a drum kit is, avoid micing the same piece of the set with more than one mic. Now, in an article by Robert Dennis http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0600/stereogt.htm , he says it's ok to record a guitar amp(same source) with more than one mic as long as you move the other mic away 3 times the distance the closest mic is to the source. Now, I know he's probably right so there must be an application for doing the same with vocals. I've seen Bob Rock do the two vocal mic thing with Metallica on the Black album as well. So my resulting question is, "Does anybody know what the application is for blending the two mics of the same vocal take together?"

Thanks in advance,


William

 

[jake-owa]

The same, you could do two at the same distance or one close, say 5 or 6 inches and the other maybe off to a side a bit and three times the distance so it would be 15 or 18 inches depending.

Personally I would recommend two takes slightly panned for stereo spread but try whatever.

 

[scrubs]

Why do you want to do this? What do you think will be better about 2 mics compared to 1? I don't get it. I mean, an amp or drumset, or even an acoustic guitar, are relatively large instruments with sound emanating from many different places (hence the use of multiple mics to capture more of the "whole picture"). The voice comes from your throat and out your mouth (a relatively small source -- at least for most of us ). You put a mic in front of it and you're done.

I mean, if you want to experiment with it, good luck to you. However, like I said in the other thread, this is rarely done with vocals, most likely because it only complicates matters and rarely improves things.

 

[jake-owa]

True Scrubby. If you have everything in stereo you have issues with hearing stuff. The cool thing about a mono vocal is the all teh other things being panned leave a perfect spot for the vocal to live in. It all depends on the song I guess, if it works it works.

I will bet that you listen to it in a year and go "why the hell did I do that?".

 

[boingoman]

Okay, what I know when micing a drum kit is, avoid micing the same piece of the set with more than one mic. Now, in an article by Robert Dennis http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0600/stereogt.htm , he says it's ok to record a guitar amp(same source) with more than one mic as long as you move the other mic away 3 times the distance the closest mic is to the source. William

He doesn't say that anywhere in that article.

Two mics on the same source are not what the 3:1 rule is about.

I'm not disagreeing with the technique (though a vocal is a mono source) stereo micing a vocal could give sense of space, I guess. And two mics on the same source can give size, thickness, whatever you want to call it.

 

[reshp1]

The 3:1 rule applies to two sources with two mics in the same space. Say you have mic A micing source A, and mic B micing source B. You want mic A to be three times as far from source B as it is from source A, and mic B to be three times as far from source A as it is from source B.
That's so mic A is picking up source A at a much higher volume as source B, and mic B is picking up source B at a much higher volume than source A. When you play back both tracks, the sound of source A comes predominately from mic A/track A and sound of source A picked up from mic B is too quiet to cause phase issues.

 

[Lionel_Hutz]

I'll bet it you'd pan the two mics together slighty, or maybe keep one in the middle and copy the distant mic and pan slighty right and left and shift the phase on one of the distant mics. Oh and the reason I want to do this is because I can see a slight stereo image in all professional recordings when the vocal is by itself, for example fuel by metallica starts with a single dry vocal by itself, as well as blood sex and booze by greenday have spots with just vocals and no reverb but still are stereo.

 

[boingoman]

I'll bet it you'd pan the two mics together slighty, or maybe keep one in the middle and copy the distant mic and pan slighty right and left and shift the phase on one of the distant mics. Oh and the reason I want to do this is because I can see a slight stereo image in all professional recordings when the vocal is by itself, for example fuel by metallica starts with a single dry vocal by itself, as well as blood sex and booze by greenday have spots with just vocals and no reverb but still are stereo.

In addition to any mic techniques, I would imagine there is some kind of pitch-shifting going on. One thing I do is to use a stereo pitch shifter. One side set +5 cents, one side set -5 cents, just barely panned. You don't notice it until it's not there. It seems to help give a solid feel to the vocal, but it sounds dry. I used to use a very mild chorus until I got a decent pitch shifter.

 

[boingoman]

This is kind of an interesting discussion.

I haven't done any real analysis of what you are talking about, but this occured to me.

Have you done the same analysis on one of your own vocal tracks, panned up the middle, and dry? I'd be curious to see what you find.

 

[Lionel_Hutz]

My one vocal track when I analyse the phase, is a stereo file but it's a mono image since I've recorded with one mic. I know the big recordings use some sort of double mic technique because the Green Day song Blood Sex and Booze looks like the left and right are out of phase 70-90 degrees.

 

[boingoman]

Well, it could easily be an electronic technique, rather than two mics.

Can you post a screen shot? I'd love to see what you are talking about.

 

[jake-owa]

My one vocal track when I analyse the phase, is a stereo file but it's a mono image since I've recorded with one mic. I know the big recordings use some sort of double mic technique because the Green Day song Blood Sex and Booze looks like the left and right are out of phase 70-90 degrees.

Ok, do you think this is a scientific approach you are taking here? You extrapolate from your phase meter that two mics were used??

 

[Lionel_Hutz]

nothing like that, I'm hoping to learn every possibility, whether it's two mics, or offsetting on side, or reverb, etc. I just believe it's two mics because I've seen this professionally done before(Bob Rock), and this would explain the slight stereo image I see in professional vocal recordings. Here's a picture of the green day vocal out of phase about 70-90 degrees.

http://www.noalternativemusic.com/offset.jpg

You can see one side is ahead of the other(or behind depending on how you look at it.)

 

[jake-owa]

Man, this is an effect created by one of two methods.

1. you record the vocal twice and pan them hard left and right, the differences between the two tracks will give the stereo spread
2. you clone or copy the track and delay one by nudging or sliding it a few ms later in time from the first.

By the look, both tracks aren't identical so it was double tracked meaning it was tracked twice and panned. End of story, quit chasing the two mic thing. You probably weren't seeing what you think you were seeing in the Metallica video.

NOT two mics.

 

[bigwillz24]

Man, this is an effect created by one of two methods.

1. you record the vocal twice and pan them hard left and right, the differences between the two tracks will give the stereo spread


NOT two mics.

Exactly but with delay on one of the tracks (usually the one panned right) set anywhere from 25ms to 130ms.

It's called "stereozation"

Damn I am learning something in school

 

[Lionel_Hutz]

Stereozation? Cool, I'll look it up and learn more thanks. I know that they didn't double track the vocal by singing it twice if thats what you mean. They must have nudged it on one side like you said and possibly gave the nudged side a slightly different eq to make it not so identical as you see in the waveform. Well I think I'll look up stereozation, or did you mean stereoization?

 

[bigwillz24]

Stereozation? Cool, I'll look it up and learn more thanks. I know that they didn't double track the vocal by singing it twice if thats what you mean. They must have nudged it on one side like you said and possibly gave the nudged side a slightly different eq to make it not so identical as you see in the waveform. Well I think I'll look up stereozation, or did you mean stereoization?

Sorry I haven't learnt to spell yet

 

[jake-owa]

Exactly but with delay on one of the tracks (usually the one panned right) set anywhere from 25ms to 130ms.

It's called "stereozation"

Damn I am learning something in school

Yes, did you see number two on my post that you cut out...that is what you are talking about.

 

[bigwillz24]

Yeah you where talking about cloning the track in the software (i know same thing)

I was saying track the vocal twice and do what you said in #2. (same thing)

 

[Alexbt]

Why do you want to do this? What do you think will be better about 2 mics compared to 1? I don't get it. I mean, an amp or drumset, or even an acoustic guitar, are relatively large instruments with sound emanating from many different places (hence the use of multiple mics to capture more of the "whole picture"). The voice comes from your throat and out your mouth (a relatively small source -- at least for most of us ). You put a mic in front of it and you're done.

No no no no no.

Very very wrong, though I suppose it depends on the application and what you're going for.

Distance from a mic and a good sounding room will add good characteristics to voices, as it does to any other instrument.