Truss rod adjustments...? maybe?

[Dogbreath]

I've got an old Ibanez that I've had for close to 15 years that needs some work. Action has gotten a LOT higher than it used to be.

It used to play like buttah but over the past few months, I've noticed it's gotten higher. By quite a bit. Close to 5/8ths of an inch at the 22nd fret. wtf?

I keep all my guitars in their cases in my bedroom so the temp change shouldn't have anything to do with it. Would it?

I'll crank down the truss rod a couple times (1/8th or 1/4 turn at a time?), reset the bridge height and intonate but I'm wondering why it's like this now. I've never had to anything to it in all this time except strings. Always played just peachy.

Any thoughts?

 

[muttley600]

Take the string off or at very least slacken them off. Go round the whole instrument and check that everything is locked down tight, especially the bridge, saddles and neck/body joint. Get a foot long straight edge and lay it from the third fret to the end and see what relief you actually have. Don't tweak on the truss rod until you know that it is the truss rod that needs adjusting. It's not designed to overcome problems other than compensating for the string pull.

Moisture content can cause severe changes in action so don't dismiss the possibility. Have you been maintaining a constant humidity or using humidifiers in the case?

Give the thing a reall good looking over and report back.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Dogbreath - an Ibanez? 15 years old? Does it have a floyd? First thing I'd check would be the bridge angle. If the strings have gone a bit flat, the bridge could very well have pulled up a bit. Check to see if the knife edges are parallel to the body.

5/8" is a LOT for the neck to have shifted, especially at the 22nd fret. MEanwhile, a high bridge would make the biggest impact right about there. That's my guess...

 

[Strumbone]

Good advice mutt, except when checking the relief with the straightedge, have all the strings at normal pitch tension. Then if relief needs adjustment, loosen the strings before turning the truss rod nut, make small adjustment (1/8 - 1/4 turn), tune back up to tension and check again. Sometimes it also helps to grab the neck and twist back and forth to let the truss rod adjustment "settle" in. Some prefer an absolute straight neck, but I prefer a slight bow, so I set the relief to about .010" using feeler guages, but I've seen it done using a playing card as well.

 

[moresound]

Moisture content can cause severe changes in action so don't dismiss the possibility. Have you been maintaining a constant humidity or using humidifiers in the case?

Here in New England winter months are very dry and really cause havoc with acoustic instruments. Everyone takes care and watches on a daily vigil for changes can happen real quick! On some instruments more than others if not at all.... wood can be oh so fickle when it comes to humidity or lack of.

 

[muttley600]

Good advice mutt, except when checking the relief with the straightedge, have all the strings at normal pitch tension. Then if relief needs adjustment, loosen the strings before turning the truss rod nut, make small adjustment (1/8 - 1/4 turn), tune back up to tension and check again. Sometimes it also helps to grab the neck and twist back and forth to let the truss rod adjustment "settle" in. Some prefer an absolute straight neck, but I prefer a slight bow, so I set the relief to about .010" using feeler guages, but I've seen it done using a playing card as well.

Nope.
I see 30 plus broken rods a year from over tightening. The advice I gave was to asses the amoint of stress already in the neck at rest. As such it is not a guide to setting relief rather to asses if there is any kick in the neck, but what follows still applies.

Once you have measured any releif at rest, set it straight with no tension if it feels ok to do so. Bring it to pitch and pull it back as required. Especially in a case like this. By doing that you are not expecting the truss rod to do too much work.

Once you have the instrument up to tension you don't need to slacken the strings again to make any further adjustments, in fact it's a pain to do so and I hate having to do it. I don't.

Also you set the relief to suit the gauge of strings, string length and playing style not to a set of feeler gauges and an empirical figure.

 

[Strumbone]

Nope.
I see 30 plus broken rods a year from over tightening. The advice I gave was to asses the amoint of stress already in the neck at rest. As such it is not a guide to setting relief rather to asses if there is any kick in the neck, but what follows still applies.

Ok, I see where you're coming from. It's just usually more accurate to see while the neck is under tension.



Once you have measured any releif at rest, set it straight with no tension if it feels ok to do so. Bring it to pitch and pull it back as required. Especially in a case like this. By doing that you are not expecting the truss rod to do too much work.

Once you have the instrument up to tension you don't need to slacken the strings again to make any further adjustments, in fact it's a pain to do so and I hate having to do it. I don't.

Uhh, I don't think I would try to adjust the rod with the strings under tension. You're right, it is a pain, though.


Also you set the relief to suit the gauge of strings, string length and playing style not to a set of feeler gauges and an empirical figure.

That's why I noted that some set it arrow-straight...different strokes for different folks.

 

[muttley600]

Here in New England winter months are very dry and really cause havoc with acoustic instruments. Everyone takes care and watches on a daily vigil for changes can happen real quick! On some instruments more than others if not at all.... wood can be oh so fickle when it comes to humidity or lack of.

I'm more than acutely aware of the fickle nature of timber and moisture content.

There is however no right or wrong level what you need to do is maintain a consistent level. Avoid sharp changes that can occur and if you live in a very seasonal region expect to have a twice yearly service done on your axe the same as you might your car.

Dry isn't as much as problem as wet as movement in service reduces as the moisture content drops. You have to watch for splits and cracks if it gets too dry though. The big killer is when switch our central heating and conditioning on for the first time each year. Those things really fuck with the ambient humidity. I have a spike in setups here around November when the central heating goes on and again in April when it goes off again.

 

[muttley600]

That's why I noted that some set it arrow-straight...different strokes for different folks.

No the advice I gave is to asses if there is any bow in the neck when not under tension. Please don't confude two different issues here.

ALL guitar makers build their necks straight. Relief is a practical method of adjusting for string buzz resulting from string gauge, playing style, string length etc. It has nothing to do with different strokes or folks it's simple the way it is done.

And what is this bit that has crept into the post of mine you quoted?

Uhh, I don't think I would try to adjust the rod with the strings under tension.

That is exactly how it should be done. That is also why so many people get it wrong and why so many get broken

 

[Dogbreath]

Cool. Much thanks gents.

I'll give it a good once over with the bridge and everything when I get home and post back.

Drew....I don't know what bridge it is. but I'll check to see what I can find.

Thanks again guys.

 

[slowmotion]

Good advice from Muttley ITT.

Check the trem posts too, over time they can develop a lean or pop up (sounds weird but I've seen it).

 

[MajorTom]

Good advice from Muttley ITT.

Check the trem posts too, over time they can develop a lean or pop up (sounds weird but I've seen it).

I have a 2 fulcrum screw trem guitar, recently I noticed the strings were a bit higher than they should be. Turns out the threaded bushings that are friction fit into the wood had risen up out of their holes just a little bit, probably around 1/32", maybe due to the dry winter weather...? For the time being I tapped 'em back in, and they have stayed in so far, but I guess at some point I will have to do a more permanent fix.

 

[Strumbone]

No the advice I gave is to asses if there is any bow in the neck when not under tension. Please don't confude two different issues here.

ALL guitar makers build their necks straight. Relief is a practical method of adjusting for string buzz resulting from string gauge, playing style, string length etc. It has nothing to do with different strokes or folks it's simple the way it is done.

And what is this bit that has crept into the post of mine you quoted?



That is exactly how it should be done. That is also why so many people get it wrong and why so many get broken

Not for me. You are correct in that the adjustment SHOULD be made while under tension, but I'm very careful with mine. I'll remove string tension, adjust, retension, check, etc. Never had a problem in 45 years of doing my own. Like you said, some people like to crank down on these things...but I know mine is right.

 

[Dogbreath]

welp...
loosened the strings, took a good look at everything and did have some minor tightening to do on the bridge but only like an 1/8th of a turn (up to a 1/4 on one) on each of the 4 mounting screws.

With strings still tight, I laid a straight edge from the 1st to the 24th fret (my bad, I said 22 frets before) and the bow in the middle of the neck was roughly 3 credit cards thick while flat on the 1st and 24th. No twist in the neck. Frets look good and even.

With strings loose, had a straight shot from the first to the 24th fret. No bow, straight shot and no fret height issues.

So I'm back to thinkin to just adjust the truss rod. But what puzzles me is what the hell did I do? After all these years with no problems, why do I have issues now? I haven't done anything different than I always have.
Should I drink more beer?



Much thanks for your input gents.

 

[slowmotion]

Not for me. You are correct in that the adjustment SHOULD be made while under tension, but I'm very careful with mine. I'll remove string tension, adjust, retension, check, etc. Never had a problem in 45 years of doing my own. Like you said, some people like to crank down on these things...but I know mine is right.

Just wondering - why do you remove the tension? You say you should, but you don't do that? Do you feel that the strings (at pitch) are exhibiting an unacceptable load on the truss rod nut, so that if you turned it at tension, you would somehow thread it? I can't see it.

I usually do what Muttley said, set it to flat with strings off, string up to whatever pitch, let it sit for a while, readjust with the tension on, let it sit, then repeat the last 2 steps until it's perfect (usually only takes one go, but still). The exceptions, obviously, are instruments with the truss rod access at the heel, when you need to take the neck off.

 

[slowmotion]

Should I drink more beer?

Definitely.

Give the truss rod a go, but go slow, quarter turns at most, leave a while between them for it to settle. Use the right sized tool and you should be fine. Don't force anything, if it's too hard to turn easily, something is wrong - it's reached it's limit, or it's seized up.

 

[miroslav]

Some prefer an absolute straight neck, but I prefer a slight bow, so I set the relief to about .010" using feeler guages, but I've seen it done using a playing card as well.

At what point on the neck are you measuring .010"...?

I capo at the 1st fret and then press down on the string at whatever fret the body meets the fretboard...and then measure at the 8th fret and go for something in the range of .3mm (.012") to .5 mm (.020"), usually shooting for the middle of the range - .4mm (.016").

I've seen several guitar manufacturers suggesting that method and something in that range for electric guitars...and I found that the .4mm (.016") worked best for the strings and feel that I liked, and to avoid too much fret buzz or intonation issues.
Plus....I have a bunch of guitars, so I try to use the same standard on all of them in order to have the same feel from guitar to guitar.

 

[muttley600]

Basically what slowmotion said.

I would just check the rod is working properly by giving it a turn with the strings off and checking it is pulling back the neck. Having done that string her up and set to work with half turns at first then when it starts to get close or starts getting harder to turn ease up. You can do most of it with out letting it settle but be prepared to adjust it again the next day and maybe the next.

Again make sure you have EXACTLY the right sized bit for it and if you feel at anytime that it is cutting the thread or creaking too much ease it off. Keep an eye on the relief as you go.

Set you bridge at the same time. Remember action is set at the bridge not with the truss rod.

Any problems report back. Good luck

 

[Strumbone]

At what point on the neck are you measuring .010"...?

I capo at the 1st fret and then press down on the string at whatever fret the body meets the fretboard...and then measure at the 8th fret and go for something in the range of .3mm (.012") to .5 mm (.020"), usually shooting for the middle of the range - .4mm (.016").

I've seen several guitar manufacturers suggesting that method and something in that range for electric guitars...and I found that the .4mm (.016") worked best for the strings and feel that I liked, and to avoid too much fret buzz or intonation issues.
Plus....I have a bunch of guitars, so I try to use the same standard on all of them in order to have the same feel from guitar to guitar.

Oh, sorry, that would be in the middle, on the 7th fret...my bad.

 

[Dogbreath]

I love this place.

BEERS ALL AROUND!


much thanks gentlemen.