TRS vs TS

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Sabu

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I just picked up some KRK RP5s today, and the guys at the music shop sold me some instrument cables to go from my mixer to the monitors. The outputs on the mixer are TRS, as are the inputs on the monitors. According to the music store guys, this doesn't matter; they said guitar cables, even though they are TS, are fine. Is this true?

I haven't used the guitar cables just yet; I might return them. I used a stereo 1/4" TS-to-RCA cord from the TRS outputs on the mixer to the unbalanced RCA inputs on the monitors, and it sounded fine. Do TRS outputs work OK with TS cords, as long as the input on the monitors is unbalanced?

Any help is appreciated!
 
Yes, the TS cables will work, but if I were you, I would just get balanced cables. It will help cut down on noise. At least it did in my situation.
 
Actaully, you're getting a 6dB cut by using unbalanaced, not the other way around... adding a balanced cable isn't going to give you "more signal"

It's like saying that your coffee gets cold- it just loses heat...

Symantics, i know...

OP: TS should be fine, but balanced will give you a stronger signal and more sheilding/noise prevention, and usually isn't that much more than a TS cable anyway
 
Sabu said:
According to the music store guys, this doesn't matter; they said guitar cables, even though they are TS, are fine. Is this true?
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well, yes and no. yes, it will work, and will not damage your equipment. no, you'll get better sound quality by getting TRS cables. unless you wish to keep them for instrument purposes, i suggest you return the cables and thank the vendors for, what is imho, poor advice on their part.
 
Generally, unbalanced operations are OK. As noted above, you lose about 6db, which in the greater scheme of things, is fairly irrelevent. If you are running fairly long runs of cable, over 15-20 feet, your signal will start to degrade, which is the main reason for balanced operations. The key thing here is the shielding. If your monitors are passive, you can run speaker cable to them, which is unshielded. But- I'm assuming your monitors are active/powered, which require shielded cables. Instrument cables, like interconnect/patch cables, are shielded, but the quality of the shielding varies wildly. Hell, you would probably get better sound running high quality Mogami keyboard cables unbalanced than cheap HOSA balanced TRS cables. In your case, whether the cables are balanced or unbalanced isn't nearly as important as whether the cables are any good to begin with.-Richie
 
Thanks all for the informative responses!

I should've gone in to a bit more detail, but my major question has been answered...from what I understand now, it is perfectly OK to use an unbalanced TS cable beween balanced TRS jacks...it's just not the best it could be, that's all (i.e. -6dB loss, possible noise).

I have a Tapco Blend 6 mixer going to 2 KRK RP5s (which are self-powered). For now, I think I will run the "CD/TAPE out" to my Audiophile 24/96 "in" (so it will be stereo RCA-to-RCA), the Audiophile "out" to the mixer's "CD/TAPE in" (another stereo RCA-to-RCA), and then the mixer's "CTRL ROOM" outs to the monitors' unbalanced RCA jacks (so a stereo 1/4" TRS-to-RCA connection, using an unbalanced cord). This is the recommended setup in the Blend's manual for PC recording. Well, it does say to use the "Main Mix" outputs to connect to the soundcard, but apparantly the "CD/TAPE out" is the same signal. I have all the necessary cords for this setup; all the cord lengths are less than 5 feet.

Thanks again for the help!...if anyone notices something wrong in the above description of my recording setup, please let me know!
 
I don't think CD/tape out and the main mix out *are* the same signal. They are both technically "line" outs, but the main mix out is most likely +4dBu (pro line level) and the CD/tape out is -10dBV (consumer line level). Either one is fine, but you need to send a +4 out to a +4 in, or a -10 out to a -10 in. If you send a -10 signal to a +4 input, there will be a significant loss in signal level, and an obviously increased noise floor.-Richie
 
Richard Monroe said:
I don't think CD/tape out and the main mix out *are* the same signal. They are both technically "line" outs, but the main mix out is most likely +4dBu (pro line level) and the CD/tape out is -10dBV (consumer line level). Either one is fine, but you need to send a +4 out to a +4 in, or a -10 out to a -10 in. If you send a -10 signal to a +4 input, there will be a significant loss in signal level, and an obviously increased noise floor.-Richie
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Thanks for the info...

BUT...here my confusion starts...! According to the 24/96 manual:

VARIABLE SIGNAL LEVELS: The options in this section allow the user to match the Audiophile analog output levels to the operating signal levels of external audio equipment. 2 level selections are available: 'Consumer' and -10dBV. The 'Consumer ' setting is the least sensitive of the two settings, and '-10dBV' the most sensitive. The 'Consumer' setting therefore has the most headroom and can accept the hottest signals. '-10dBV' should be chosen if you feel (or hear) 'Consumer' levels clipping or distorting your externally connected equipment.

NOTE: The analog inputs of the Audiophile are fixed to 'Consumer' levels. If you want to maintain equal analog signal levels in and out of the Audiophile (also known as "unity gain"), you should select consumer output levels to match the consumer input levels.

You can understand my confusion, hopefully...the Audiophile manual is basically saying that "Consumer" and "-10dBV" are not the same thing...is the Audiophile's idea of "consumer" line level +4dBV, then?

I can't find the rating for the RCA tape output, but the TRS jacks MAIN output on the mixer is listed at +4dBV.

Again, any help is appreciated!
 
No, what they are saying is that you can not change the input level (which may or may not be -10) but you can change the output level by turning on the 10 db pad so you won't distort the inputs of what you are plugging it into.

This is what the tech support person told me. Of course, he couldn't tell me what level the inputs or the outputs were. (+4, -10, or something else)

Calling it 'consumer' and '-10' was just a very stupid thing to do. That manual is not written well.
 
Richard Monroe said:
Hell, you would probably get better sound running high quality Mogami keyboard cables unbalanced than cheap HOSA balanced TRS cables.
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I think that's a bit of a fallicy that is being perpetuated by a lack of knowledge.

Yes, Mogami make good cables. However, over the length of run between soundcard and monitors, you're not going to get that much noise created by the variations in capaticance/reactance of the cable itself when you're comparing Mogami to hosa. Sure, the moulded plastic connectors on a hosa are more susceptible to failure than a mogami (and harder to fix), if you buy new cables and only plug them in once (or wheneve ryou move your monitors- probably not all that often) your'e probably not going to damage the internal connections.
However, the unbalanced Mogami is still going to be 6dB down from the hosa- hence you are increasing the noisefloor of the monitor by 6dB to get the same level. This is also ignoring the RF interference that might be inccured in an unbalanced cable (i'm not sure about mogami ub cable, and if it is sheilded)
Hence, I would speculate than an unbalanced Mogami would sound worse than a hosa.

Really, that reasoning above isn't that much of a stretch, however I bet if you put the choice to a lot of people on this board, they would still reach for the mogami, simply because "the knowledgable" people on homerecording.com said mogami was better in all circumstances.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but a little thought can go a long way.
 
cpl_crud said:
Actaully, you're getting a 6dB cut by using unbalanaced, not the other way around...

Symantics, i know...
Click to expand...

Not really semantics, it is a signal loss. When a balanced signal is split, it is also attenuated so that when it recombines at the other end, the signal is at it's original strength. When you connect a balanced out to an unbalanced in, part of the signal is shorted to ground, resulting in a loss.

There are balanced outputs that let you hook up unbalanced gear without the 6db loss. Many servo-balanced pieces operate this way.

BTW, balanced signals aren't inherently better quality or quieter than unbalanced ones, if the designs are well done to keep internal noise down. Balanced lines perform better when external noise shows up. Which seems to be much of the time. :p
 
I was talking more about the fact that a cable isn't going to amplify the signal 6dB...
and it's the cable that's balanced, not the signal. The signal travels, as a wave, between the hot and cold conductors. If the cold and ground are conneted (or are a single wire) then there is less voltage generated by the signal.
Waveguide physics is fun.

But your'e right, servo-balanced stuff shouldn't have the loss, but that's because of the way it's "balanced".
Either way, you're better off having monitor cables balanced anyway, as most monitor cables are going to be running by computers, monitors, psus....
 
Thanks again everyone for your informative responses. I have everything up and running now; only problem is that one of the monitors suffers from a strange random crackling that I'm trying to isolate. I've tried everything I can think of: different cords, switching outputs on the mixer, reducing volume and gain, using a different electrical outlet, cleaning the jacks and cords, and switching the positions of the monitors. Is it most likely a manufacturing defect if the crackling continues despite doing all of these? It's always the same monitor, which leads me to believe that is the case.
 
Sabu said:
Thanks again everyone for your informative responses. I have everything up and running now; only problem is that one of the monitors suffers from a strange random crackling that I'm trying to isolate. I've tried everything I can think of: different cords, switching outputs on the mixer, reducing volume and gain, using a different electrical outlet, cleaning the jacks and cords, and switching the positions of the monitors. Is it most likely a manufacturing defect if the crackling continues despite doing all of these? It's always the same monitor, which leads me to believe that is the case.
Click to expand...
Probably a blown horn or tweeter :(
 
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