Trouble Recording Fender Hot Rod Deluxe 2x12 Combo

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RecordingMaster

RecordingMaster

A Sarcastic Statement
Hi there,
Started tracking some guitars last night for a couple songs on a demo my rock band will be releasing shortly.

Here's the chain:
Guitar>Fender Hot Rod Deluxe 2x12 combo amp>sm57 on grill and an Apex435 Wide Diaphragm Cardioid Condenser as a room mic>cable snake into control room>Tascam US-1800 Audio Interface>27" iMac OS X Snow Leopard w/ 16 G Ram and Terrabyte Hard Drive>Adobe Audition CS 5.5

Here's what we were going for:
A nice full, rhythm guitar track with good sustain and panned to one side (then we'd try a diferent amp or setting and/or guitar for the other side). It's for a good solid straight ahead alternative rock song with a medium-slow tempo (not quite a ballad).

Here's the issue:
No matter what we tried, I couldn't get a good combination of rich tone and a good smooth overdrive. The overdrive was too in-your-face and when I tried turning it up to get more sustain for those chords that hold for a 4 count, it just hot more harsh and in your face. So if I tried lowering the overdrive, raising the master and giving it more bass, it would be warmer and creamier, but lacked the sustain we wanted and sounded weaker (the sustain) and not really a good sound as an alternative rock rhythm guitar sound. Not full enough and still too whiney. Maybe I'm not not liking that close mic'ed sound of tube distortion? Maybe I need to be driving a huge stack with a tube amp instead?

Edit: The amp sounded awesome in person!

Here's what we tried, I will focus more on the SM57 techniques we used. Imagine we had the room mic on mute for now while we dial in a good close-mic'ed tone first:
- SM 57 right up to grill (too in your face)
- SM57 6" away(too weak)
- SM57 2" away (still not right)
- Tried each speaker for their different sounds (none were any better or worse)
- Angles tried at the above positions included 1) mic on axis with speaker, slightly off center from cone, 2) mic on axis with speaker, centered on cone 3) mic slightly off axis
- Acoustic isolation included a small baffles on left and right of amp consisting of blankets draped over chairs, and a slab of rigid fiberglass about a foot behind the amp. The room is also acoustically treated and has bass traps in corners. It was too isolated, so I removed the fiberglass panel from behind the amp to make it more open and natural sounding. Was a little better and bassier.

We have limited amps to work with right now and don't want the same amp tone for every song so we're basically wanting to use this amp for at least 3 out of 5 songs for at least one side of a rhythm guitar bed. So I'm hoping I'll get a better answer than "use a differentamp".

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!
 
if the amp sounded awesome in the room then you're simply not capturing the sound well enough.
I'd try more mic positions ..... a change of 1/2" can make audible differences in how well it picks up the sound.

And personally, I NEVER stick a mic in the center of the cone or even only slightly off center. That's gonna be the harshest sound generally.
It depends on what I want but it's not uncommon for me to have the mic all the way at the edge of the speaker, maybe slightly angled towards the center.
Also ....... I'm not quite getting the need for a long sustain ...... rhythm gits generally provide some rhythm which doesn't really require sustain.

But the main thing I'm seeing is that, if your post is accurate, you haven't really tried very many mic positions. Getting a git to sound right can be a matter of trying 40 or 50 positions if it takes that to dial it in.
 
Lt. Bob said:
...... I NEVER stick a mic in the center of the cone or even only slightly off center. That's gonna be the harshest sound generally.
It depends on what I want but it's not uncommon for me to have the mic all the way at the edge of the speaker, maybe slightly angled towards the center.
Click to expand...

That's it in a few sentences.
The quest you are on has been the Holy Grail for guitar players the last 912 years. There is no one correct answer, but many options. Lowering the overdrive is absolutely the right idea; usually high gain 'Boogie' type (all in the preamp) settings are thinner. But now there's no sustain? There's the compromise.
One thing you can do is have at least a pedal or two in line. Maybe a compressor for some sustain, and a mild 'crunch' pedal. Not a fuzz, but something with tone control to get some mids and bottom happening. There's another Holy Grail quest. Good luck. :facepalm:
Then, look at the amplifier. Sure, they have a great reputation, but look it over. At the least, check your power tubes, and be sure the bias is set for that 'maximum' tone. Maybe you need new tubes? Maybe just 'better' tubes?
Lastly, try another room mic. The 435 is OK, and usually less than $80, but for me a ribbon does a better job. Apex has the 205 and the 210, around $100-$120, and with a few of the online mods, they are excellent. Just a suggestion.
 
ranjam said:
a mild 'crunch' pedal. Not a fuzz, but something with tone control to get some mids and bottom happening. There's another Holy Grail quest. Good luck. :facepalm:
Click to expand...
:laughings:
Boy ain't that the truth?
It's pretty amazing how you can get 100 OD's and every damned one of them sounds different ........ and none of them are quite right!

:D
 
Stick the 57 on the outside edge of the speaker...lt bob is right about the cone placment sucking.
If the guitar is sounding real good you should walk around the room and when you find the sweet spot that sounds the best...place a LDC mic where your ear is and record an additional track simultaniously with the sm57 track. When you mix you can blend the 2 tracks or use the best sounding one and cull the other. You may have some phasing problems if the LDC is too far away from the amp and the 57 is close ....and you use both tracks...but there are many threads on this site that discuss using digital delay to sync it all up
 
Lt. Bob said:
:laughings:
Boy ain't that the truth?
It's pretty amazing how you can get 100 OD's and every damned one of them sounds different ........ and none of them are quite right!

:D
Click to expand...
I have spent hours upon hours adjusting overdrive pedals and mic placements.
The hardest sound for me to capture is the high volume clean sound used in the Late 50's and early 60's by the blues cats like Albert , Freddie, and BB king. Those old amps had a high pitched ring...an overtone really...that cqnnot be duplicated, unless you crank a tube amp way up. They also had alot of sustain..but not compresser or overdrive pedal sustain.
You'll drive yourself crazy trying to get that at low volume.
 
So last night we tracked some bass guitar tracks and it sounded AMAZING! He ran two amps simultaneously...A Fender Retro Yellow Bass Tube amp with SM57 and a Galien Kruger head through an Acoustic Cab with SM57, plus a DI signal. Everything was very controlled sounding (no excessive boominess or too many unwanted frequencies) so I know my mics, room, software, hardware and techniques are spot on (especially considering how damn good of a drum sound I am getting).

So I would hope when we track some more guitar tonight, that I can get a little closer to the sound I want. Going to try an alternate smaller Fender 1x12 tube amp combo as well as an AVT 150H Marshall Valvestate head through a 4x12 cab. Will be trying a strat, gibson and Gretsch hollow body with both amps going at once and see which one sounds best, then dismantle other amp, and add a room mic.

As for sustain I desire, as mentioned, is during the times in an epic chorus part where the rhythm guitar will hold a power chord for a 4 count.
I'll try your suggestions about moving the mic even FURTHER off the cone (most of my experimentation was with it off the cone for the record), and see what happens. Wish me luck! Will update tomorrow.
 
RecordingMaster said:
I'll try your suggestions about moving the mic even FURTHER off the cone (most of my experimentation was with it off the cone for the record), and see what happens. Wish me luck! Will update tomorrow.
Click to expand...
we didn't say move it further OFF the cone ..... we said move it towards the edge of the cone.
 
Lt. Bob said:
we didn't say move it further OFF the cone ..... we said move it towards the edge of the cone.
Click to expand...
Oh, I must've misunderstood.

Well after taking about 2 hours of trial and error last night, we got a VERY usable rhythm guitar tone to lay nicely on one side of the guitar bed. We ended up using a Gibson through a Marshall AVT150H Valvestate amp through a 4x12 cab. I guess it was just that stack sound we were looking for, for this song.

But for another more groovy tune, we use more of the rhythm track we recorded earlier this week that I wasn't so fond of by itself (the track with hollowbody Gretsch through Fender Hot Rod Deluxe 2x12). I guess you can't expect that tube sound to ALWAYS sound awesome for every need.

Although I AM obsessed with using tube modeled single-band compressors on everything from vocals, to drums to guitars. :P
 
Supercreep said:
Compression. You want it.
Click to expand...
I hate compression and how it sounds, especically on guitar.

I pretty much avoid it.

Of course ...... some of those big dollar units like you have may be different but I don't like it and I'm not alone oin that.
Audio purist labels tend to not use it if it can possibly be avoided.
 
Lt. Bob said:
I hate compression and how it sounds, especically on guitar.

I pretty much avoid it.

Of course ...... some of those big dollar units like you have may be different but I don't like it and I'm not alone oin that.
Audio purist labels tend to not use it if it can possibly be avoided.
Click to expand...

For a guitar bed though, you know? The "wall of sound" of guitars where it sounds huge and full with no distinct "Oh I can hear the rhythm track 1 of 4 where we used a strat there. The only guitar that I want to stick out is the lead guitar, or guitar that is playing something to compliment the chords, like harmonics, octaves, etc. So maybe I AM after compression, or more of it.

Anyone know of a good setting to achieve this? I have experimented and cant find anything really too effective.

Gain: (-) or (+) in db
Threshold:
Ratio:
Attack:
Release:
 
Lt. Bob said:
I hate compression and how it sounds, especically on guitar.

I pretty much avoid it.

Of course ...... some of those big dollar units like you have may be different but I don't like it and I'm not alone oin that.
Audio purist labels tend to not use it if it can possibly be avoided.
Click to expand...

On crunchy guitars, I think it can really help bring out the strings and add energy to the track. I check it out case by case, because sometimes it does make everything worse. In my non-expert opinion, a good LA2A plug can sound pretty good on a git.

Here's an example of a Hot Rod Dville 2x12 through an EssM-57 with a sonitus LA2A plug, right out of the gate:
.

Guitars were, I believe, an SG with 57 classics, and a deluxe telecaster with stock pickups.


Edit: It is important to say in this thread that Lt. Bob is one of the best musicians I have ever heard, and the dude does music for a living. He talks, I listen.

As for dynamics processing, YMMV.
 
thanks ..... where's my CD?
:D


I can't use plug ins since I don't record on a 'puter so I'm limited to whatever hardware I have and none of it is high end.
Oddly enough, though I don't like the comp pedals I have nor the Alesis 3630 nor the Behringer something or nuther, I tried an Alesis thingie just today that worked. It was from some odd line of small-footprint fx's Alesis failed miserably with 7 or 8 years ago and I bought one of each of the 7 units for 19 bucks each.
I wasn't impressed and they all sat on the shelf but today I was looking for some new sounds and tried out the comp unit and it was pretty happening.
It actually made my guitar sound better without screwing up the attack.

What's look ahead? How can it look ahead if I haven't played it yet?
 
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