Track Bleed

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Cheeky Monkey

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I just acquired the gear I need to record via PC (including Audiophile 2496, Cubase SX 2.0), got it all connected right, and now I'm experimenting. I'm not focussed on quality yet, just making sure I'm fiddling with all the right controls on my small mixer and in Cubase. I was able to record a mic'd acoustic guitar track, listen to it while recording some keys through the USB midi keyboard controller, then listen to the first two tracks while recording a lead guitar part (through the POD). Everything on these three tracks seems fine. Then I tried to add a vocal track and I've noticed that this fourth track is faintly picking up the other three as well as the vocal (and my nearfield monitors are turned down while recording this track with headphones). I've done some searches to try and solve the problem on my own and the best I can find is the following suggestion in another thread...

"Before you do anything else, I suggest you open up the Windows Mixer (double click on the speaker icon in your system tray). Go to Options -> Properties, and click the button for Recording, then click OK. You should get what looks like a mixer. See what is checked off. You should have Line In checked. If you have "What You Hear" checked, that is your problem. It will record everything going through the sound card (i.e., the playback and the new track)."

When I open the Windows mixer in my PC and click the Recording button, no mixer opens. So, I can't even see a "What You Hear" selection. Is it possible there's something in the Audiophile soundcard mixer that I'm supposed to enable or disable that I can't find?

I'd very much appreciate some help to solve this track bleed problem. Thanks.

Edit: I suspect the problem has something to do with the headphones because I didn't (need to) use them while recording tracks 1, 2, 3. Is it possible that when monitoring with headphones, I have to change the channel 5/6 inputs that I'm now using from my Audiophile 2496 outs to other imputs? By the way, fwiw, my small Wharfedale R-1604 mixer doesn't have channel inserts (in case someone thinks the solution has something to do with that) and I'm using Alt 3/4 to monitor.
 
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I've continued to try and troubleshoot, and it's not the headphones. And unless it's this so-called "What you hear" selection which I can't find, I guess it must be a routing issue. If it'll help, here's my connections:

- Mixer Alt 3/4 L/R outs > Audiophile L/R ins
- Audiophile L/R outs > Mixer Ch 5/6 L/R ins
- Mixer Control Room Outs > Monitors

I'm sure it's a simple solution, but as a relative newb, I'm stumped. Hope someone can advise me. Thanks.
 
My guess is that your mic is picking up bleed over from your headphones. To test this set up your mic the same way as before. Now mute all of the instrument tracks but one. Record a small section of vocals. Play back the vocal track. If you only hear the vocal and a slight amount of the un-muted instrument track then it is your headphones. If you can hear the other instruments that were muted along with your vocals then it is a different problem.
 
ocnor said:
My guess is that your mic is picking up bleed over from your headphones. To test this set up your mic the same way as before. Now mute all of the instrument tracks but one. Record a small section of vocals. Play back the vocal track. If you only hear the vocal and a slight amount of the un-muted instrument track then it is your headphones. If you can hear the other instruments that were muted along with your vocals then it is a different problem.
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Thanks for the advice. I tried what you suggested, and in fact, I can only hear the vocal and a slight amount of the un-muted instrument track. So, I guess it IS the headphones then. Do you mean the problem is the headphones themselves -- I believe they're fine. I have the headphones plugged into the headphones input on the mixer. I don't think it's my routing either because I actually referenced the site that livilaNic provided as my connectivity reference. Hmmm.
 
livilaNic said:
Check this site out, http://www.tweakheadz.com/how_to_hookup_a_mixer.htm
Click to expand...
Thanks for the link livilaNic, but as I mentioned to ocnor above, I actually referenced the site as my connectivity reference. I'm stumped.

Any other ideas guys? Is their possibly a "What you hear" equivalent setting I'm not finding in the Audiophile control panel? I'm grasping at straws now.
 
There are different types of headphones. You need to use "closed-back" headphones for tracking vocals. If you use "open-back" or "semi open -back" phones they will bleed into the mic during recording.
That "what you hear" setting is in the windows mixer. This does not apply to you because the Audiophile uses the Delta control panel.
 
ocnor said:
There are different types of headphones. You need to use "closed-back" headphones for tracking vocals. If you use "open-back" or "semi open -back" phones they will bleed into the mic during recording.
That "what you hear" setting is in the windows mixer. This does not apply to you because the Audiophile uses the Delta control panel.
Click to expand...
I'm using "AKG K240DF Studio Monitor" headphones, so they're not the problem. Thanks again for trying to figure it out.
 
Those headphones are "semi open-backed" so that IS your problem.They are good for playback but they are not good for tracking vocals.
 
ocnor said:
Those headphones are "semi open-backed" so that IS your problem.They are good for playback but they are not good for tracking vocals.
Click to expand...
Thanks again ocnor. I'm kinda hoping that you're right and simply buying a proper set will solve it, but during my tests, I had my wife listen to see if she could hear any sound coming out from the headphones, and she could not. I even had the volume low on the phones. Plus, the bleeding happens whether the headphones are plugged into the mixer or not. I tried recording a test vocal track while my nearfields were turned down and the headphones not plugged into the mixer. The bleed occurred regardless. I even muted some tracks for different tests and only the unmuted tracks bled onto the test vocal track. Again, whether the phones were plugged in or not. With this in mind, my newb mind is telling me that somehow, my mic/line-in channels are picking up what's coming back into the mixer (Ch 5/6) from the Audiophile outs. I've tried connecting into other jacks on the mixer (e.g. Stereo EFX Returns, Aux Sends -- that's all I have left to try). Either that, or some wrong setting in the Delta control panel that may be a sort of equivalent to the Windows mixer "What you hear" problem. I dunno! Aarrgghh!!!
 
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If you are getting bleed without the phones plugged in then it sounds like crosstalk between the mixer channels. The easiest way to stop that is to run a separate preamp to the Audiophile inputs and just use your mixer as a headphone amp.
 
Ok so you have your soundcard going in/out of the mixer? I had the same problem with the Yamaha MG10/2. The only way I was able to run through it was to run the Mixer out from the AUX 1. In the MG everything routed to the master fader which created bleed. When I wanted to monitor with phones off the mixer.

I bet this is whats wrong with the mixer you have as well. I don't know why they routed it this way. :'(

Check this thread out maybe it will help. Not sure if your mixer is the same or not.
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=149743


L8er,
livilaNic
 
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the "what you hear" that the guy was speaking of is probably the equiv to the "Stereo Mix" in the recording section of the windows volume control. make sure that is unchecked and your line in or whatever you're using to go into the sound card is.

hope that helps a little... let me know. :)
 
g0dmoney said:
the "what you hear" that the guy was speaking of is probably the equiv to the "Stereo Mix" in the recording section of the windows volume control. make sure that is unchecked and your line in or whatever you're using to go into the sound card is.

hope that helps a little... let me know. :)
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When I access the Windows volume control > options > recording, there's nothing in the list (there is under playback, but not recording), so I don't see "What you hear", "Stereo Mix" or anything. Thanks for trying.
 
ocnor said:
If you are getting bleed without the phones plugged in then it sounds like crosstalk between the mixer channels. The easiest way to stop that is to run a separate preamp to the Audiophile inputs and just use your mixer as a headphone amp.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it does seem like crosstalk. Surely the mixer shouldn't do this? I'm told this Wharfedale R-1604 is somewhere in between an equivalent featured Behringer and Yamaha as far a squality goes. Do these other "entry-level" mixers all have this same problem? Crosstalk/bleed or whatever you want to call it must be a no-no and part of what the mixer design deals with -- even budget mixers. It makes no sense to me that the mixer can't overcome this. Or am I missing something?
 
livilaNic said:
Ok so you have your soundcard going in/out of the mixer? I had the same problem with the Yamaha MG10/2. The only way I was able to run through it was to run the Mixer out from the AUX 1. In the MG everything routed to the master fader which created bleed. When I wanted to monitor with phones off the mixer.

I bet this is whats wrong with the mixer you have as well. I don't know why they routed it this way. :'(

Check this thread out maybe it will help. Not sure if your mixer is the same or not.
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=149743

L8er,
livilaNic
Click to expand...
I had read that thread before, read it again with your link, tried to re-connect things, and perhaps I'm having trouble understanding, but I couldn't stop the crossover/bleed. I'm quite frustrated.
 
Cheeky Monkey said:
I had read that thread before, read it again with your link, tried to re-connect things, and perhaps I'm having trouble understanding, but I couldn't stop the crossover/bleed. I'm quite frustrated.
Click to expand...

Well all you have to do is run the OUTPUT of the mixer from somewhere on the mixer that is not routed to the master fader. Which as I stated is the AUX 1. The AUX has its own fader on the channel the source is plugged in. You don't need a headphone amp. Also don't monitor speaks from the mixer. Monitor off the soundcard.


Hope this clicks soon. It was this bad for me as you saw in the other threads.


L8er,
livilaNic

If you find a solution that fits you better plz post it here.
 
livilaNic said:
Well all you have to do is run the OUTPUT of the mixer from somewhere on the mixer that is not routed to the master fader. Which as I stated is the AUX 1. The AUX has its own fader on the channel the source is plugged in. You don't need a headphone amp. Also don't monitor speaks from the mixer. Monitor off the soundcard.


Hope this clicks soon. It was this bad for me as you saw in the other threads.


L8er,
livilaNic

If you find a solution that fits you better plz post it here.
Click to expand...
Thanks again for your thoughts. In actual fact, tonight, in two other related threads where others are experiencing very similar problems, two HR.com members offered solutions which have worked out -- one perfect, one just about.

The ideal solution turned out to be simply...
Audiophile L/R RCA outs > mixer Tape Ins L/R RCA, and making sure the 2-Tr button is pressed.

The lesser, but good option was staying with my original set-up...
Audiophile L/R RCA outs > mixer Ch 5/6 (or other free ch) L/R 1/4", but what I had to change was to pan hard left on Ch 5/6. The only problem with this method is that I hear the previously recorded tracks only in the left ear, the track being recorded in the right.

Now I can get-on with recording and experimenting with recording quality issues. Right now, I'm happy.

Thanks again.
 
Cheeky Monkey said:
Thanks again for your thoughts. In actual fact, tonight, in two other related threads where others are experiencing very similar problems, two HR.com members offered solutions which have worked out -- one perfect, one just about.

The ideal solution turned out to be simply...
Audiophile L/R RCA outs > mixer Tape Ins L/R RCA, and making sure the 2-Tr button is pressed.

The lesser, but good option was staying with my original set-up...
Audiophile L/R RCA outs > mixer Ch 5/6 (or other free ch) L/R 1/4", but what I had to change was to pan hard left on Ch 5/6. The only problem with this method is that I hear the previously recorded tracks only in the left ear, the track being recorded in the right.

Now I can get-on with recording and experimenting with recording quality issues. Right now, I'm happy.

Thanks again.
Click to expand...

Koo, glad you got something workin. My mixer doesn't have the 2TR button. So yeah that sounds good. "The only problem with this method is that I hear the previously recorded tracks only in the left ear, the track being recorded in the right." That to me is the best way to track. That is also how I do it with the AUX 1 set.
Happy recording.:D

L8er,
livilaNic
 
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