Too much head room

  • Thread starter Thread starter LI Slim
  • Start date Start date
LI Slim

LI Slim

New member
I have a criticism that I intend to pass on the Flavio if you guys (especially you Tom) agree. There's too much head room. That is, it clips when there is still 1-2dB available.

I did my final mix of a song in which I ended up with what I thought were several peaks at 0dB and one or two quick clips. When I played it back after the mixdown (and mp3 conversion) the overall volume seemed low. We all want our stuff to be as loud as possible without distorting (and without overcompressing), right? I read some advice by Sonusman that the digital recording software often has this headroom, or cushion, and to disregard a few clips as long as it doesn't sound distorted.

So I went back to my tracks and turned up the master, eventually, as I recall, 1.6dB. I also found the "playback vu-meter anticipates the output" setting under preferences, which tells you the positive dB reading on the playback meter instead of just saying "clip". I had all this red flashing at me, but guess what: the positive dB reading never exceeded zero and there was no distortion.

I'm glad that N-track makes it possible for me to monitor and fix all this but I hate being told that my song is clipping like crazy when it's not. So I don't like having the headroom. Do you agree?
 
I've noticed that too. The "clip" comes on, though it doesn't actually sound like clipping. IT does make it harder to judge when it really will go into clipping. It's like the 0db mark is not right or something.
 
Yes it's really confusing for those of us who are still in the "throws" of transitioning from the analog mindset to the digital. The first thing I ever heard about digital audio was for heaven sake DON'T CLIP. Now it seems this is not completely true.

I've examined waveforms of various studio quality work to find total saturation and clip, at least visually. I'm assuming this is accomplised with compression though I haven't figured it out for myself yet. Damn just give me a rule and I'll follow it. No such luck I guess. Trust your ears/monitors.

Rusty K
 
I think maybe this is a transition thing for old analog guys like me.We were always taught to slam the levels to tape.But whereas with tape that was a good thing with desireable side effects like "warmth" and compression,the digital equivalent is an "over" that sounds horrible.
I set my peaks to max at -3 dB,then compress and limit the mix up to about -1.
Tom
 
Tom,

Is that the final mix you are talking about? I haven't made it to a final mix yet. You said set the peaks to max at -3db. Is that normalization or do you still normalize after you apply compression/limiting to -1db?

RK
 
I track at -3dB.The process of compression and effects adds some level.But I've got a bit of a bias against the hard limit school of "make it as loud as it can be",because if you squash the hell out of the natural dynamic range between the quietest and loudest sounds,it also sounds somewhat artificial.
In the bad old days we had to compress hard and limit hard just to fit in the available dynamic range but not now.The dynamic range of my $30 Ensoniq sound card is 80dB,for example.
To get an idea of what I mean, listen to any classical recording and compare that dynamic range to any pop recording.Also movie soundtracks usually have great range.
Tom
 
Tom, this is exactly my purpose in starting this thread. The last thing I want to do is overcompress in order to be heard. But when someone plays my little song on MP3.com I don't want them to have to futz with their faders in order to hear it as well as they heard the last song. So I'm complaining about too much head room.

If you're recording and mixing too low and later decide to bring up the volume, you're increasing the noise, no? I was starting at about -3dB also, but I think with our favorite software that's really about -4.5dB. As I said, the first time I did my final mix it just seemed too low, even though I was on the verge of clipping. Then I turned it up about 1.5, and got a louder final product without having to process anything, and even though the red light kept flashing the dB level never exceeded 0dB. I guess I don't want to need this to be idiot-proof.

See what I mean?
 
Long Island,(just guessing)

Ok so your saying as long as I stay below -1.5 db everything will be ok even if my VU's show clipping?

RK
 
You are correct, Sir, but you can call me Slim

Rusty-

Let's just make sure we're talking about the same thing.

Tom tracks at -3.0db, meaning he's peaking at about that, because (I assume) he knows he's going to be adding additional tracks, which of course will increase the total volume, and then effects, which will increase the volume even more. I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong.

You can record everything at 0dB and still be fine, but you're going to have to turn everything down more when you mix. N-track also has a setting that does that automatically (I don't remember what it's called).

I'm also saying that however you get there, you want to be peaking as high as possible without distorting. And the "playback vu-meter anticipates the output" setting tells you how far (if at all) OVER 0db you're going, so, if you end up peaking at 0.2dB or something you'll probably be okay. I'm also saying that the playback meter (and master volume control) show clipping even when it really isn't; hence, "headroom".

If you're peaking at -1.5dB, I don't see how it can be showing clips at all.

I guess the point is you have to go through the process and readjust and look at the readings to figure out how far you can push it.
 
Slim,

I meant 1.5db. From what I can gather from what you were saying, that's about the extent of headroom in the software.
As I stated earlier I'm still learning the software and no where near a final mix yet. I'm just soaking up as much knowledge as possible so I'll be ready.

Thanks,
RK
 
Hey guys,

I've noticed the same situation too. Unfortunately I haven't been doing too much recording lately so I haven't had time to try dealing with it.

Slim, you mentioned the setting that automatically reduces the volume as tracks are added. I don't know if it has a name, but you access it by first clicking on the "File" button on your menu bar. Then go to "Preferences" and click on the "Options" tab. Near the bottom is a section called "Mixing" and you can select or deselect the "Automatically decrease volume as tracks are added" setting.

I have always that setting turned on, so maybe it would make a difference if I turned it off and tried mixing it manually. I'll have to futz with that when I get some time.
 
Ok sooo....?

What about normalization? I have always recorded low and normalized at the final mix. Of course that's with a stereo wave editor. Where am I picking up noise, using this method, if I also use noise reduction on each track? I thought the pupose of normalization is to raise the level just to the point of clipping. Actually I have normalized and found that it caused some clipping. In that case I just backed the normalization off 2%.

If this method is sound then I would think that the automatic volume adjust option would be good.

Rusty K
 
Rusty,

I had sent Flavio a message several months ago about the meters including the CPU usage meter being incorrect. I found out about that while testing Cubase VST against n-Track. His reply was that it was a fault in Windows 95/98 OS. He said that NT (or 2000) would be more true.

I guess the only alternative is to get used to how your system responds. Tom's reply on peak average at -3db works great for a premaster. Since you are using a wave editor to master with (like wavelab or soundforge) you will get a better picture of peaks since the resources are concentrated on one stereo interleaved file. You are used to the analog days so db averaging should be common place to you. A good standard for a non-squashed mix is to average the rms level (not peak) at -6db. Peaks on digi are a problem! A lot of commercial CD players can not handle 0db, they will distort at that peak level. So, a good idea is to peak at -0.2 to -0.5 db to avoid the crackel. Normalizing a master mix has never worked well for me, compression sounds much better(just my opinion).

Also, streaming internet files will crackel or distort even earier than that. -1.0 db seems to work good for a streaming file.

So back to the n-Track problem, just try to keep it out of the clip and then increase your desired amplitude in the mastering process. This should not add any noticable noise to the human ear. You may barely see it on a VU meter that is set to a -60db range, but that is a lot of head room man! Noise is actually a good thing in most cases (ok, get the flame throwers out)...

Later,
ME
 
ME,

Thanks for the input. Forget the automatic volume adjust. I can't work with it. It messes with the levels when I'm laying tracks. Anyway it's just easier for me without it.

I am running ME so maybe this will prove to be no problem at all.

Thanks again for your help.

Rusty K
 
Back
Top