Too much crushing while compressing/limiting?

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Omniscient

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Hey, guys!

It's been a while, but I have another question. I figured I did a good job mixing the last song I recorded, the levels were pretty low and there wasn't any distortion at all, everything "mixed" well. But when I got to increase the all around volume at the mastering stage I can't bring it up nearly enough without a lot of crushing, from the compressors/limiter. So even after it's compressed, EQ'd, and limited it's still quiet as hell, if I try to go higher I get that harsh flattening..

I was just wondering what caused this? Is it too much low end? This is a death metal project I'm doing, so I cut out as much of the bass and mud as I could without sacrificing a good sound.

If anyone has any input it's appreciated.
 
Your drums are probably too loud. If not, you haven't reeled in the dynamics of the individual instruments enough.
 
mixsit said:
So you had a good mix that sounds right, then you decided to say screw that I want it loud.

Next.
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I want it audible. The people I've sent it to who don't have studio monitors can barely hear it. Don't be so ignorant.
 
Then you've either A: got a shitty limiter, B: have a less-than-stellar mix, or C: both.

Post your track, post which plugs/hardware you're using, then we can help!
 
:) No sweat. Really though. Can't hear it?
.. only to say, the difference between the volume you can get just taming the worst of the peaks that won't even damage a mix all that much and smashtered is how many db?
 
I still don't know what kind of stereo systems people are using if they "can't hear it".

I've recorded really quiet acoustic pieces and didnt even go as far as to normalize them (I think highest peak was like -6) and the average level was far below just about any professional recording and I didn't even have to turn it up that much louder...

Maybe it's not the limiter or your mix, maybe it's all the stereo systems you've been listening on. :D
 
Omniscient said:
Hey, guys!

It's been a while, but I have another question. I figured I did a good job mixing the last song I recorded, the levels were pretty low and there wasn't any distortion at all, everything "mixed" well. But when I got to increase the all around volume at the mastering stage I can't bring it up nearly enough without a lot of crushing, from the compressors/limiter. So even after it's compressed, EQ'd, and limited it's still quiet as hell, if I try to go higher I get that harsh flattening..

I was just wondering what caused this? Is it too much low end? This is a death metal project I'm doing, so I cut out as much of the bass and mud as I could without sacrificing a good sound.

If anyone has any input it's appreciated.
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There may be a large buildup of a certain frequency range that you're not hearing. On a spectrum analyzer it might look like a big hump in a certain area. Maybe your mix room has a null at that point and you just don't hear it right. That frequency spike then triggers the comp/limiter/whatever long before it otherwise would if it were not there.

Try "looking" at your mix in this case - you're probably just not hearing it. Voxengo has a free spectrum analyzer. Worth a shot.

You could post a sample somewhere too.
 
Thanks for all the input guys. Where can I host songs? I tried myspace but it really takes out all the quality of the song even after trying a higher rate.

Ok, anyway. I'm using Sonar 4 too record and I'm using Voxengo, Sonar, and some Waves plug-ins. On the guitar I remove the muddy frequencies, bring the 4k range up a dB or so, remove all the frequencies below 60db. There's no bass in there yet. For the kick I get rid of the really low frequencies and I use a slight mids boost window so you can hear the punch. Snare just has some Eq and slight compression to get the feel I wanted. The symbals I killed the really high frequencies, and some of the mids, again to get the sound I wanted.

People can't really hear the mix because it's peak is around -12db FS, unless they crank the crap out of their speakers. When I master the song I use a spectrum analyzer and try to lessen some of the low frequency humps. The 4k+ range is all falling in place where it should. After Eqing I use a multiband compressor and then use L2 as a limiter on the end.

I can increase the all around volume somewhat but it's still very weak. I'm not saying louder is better, it's just way too soft.

I have hosted the song on myspace, but the quality is horrible, so as soon as I find a better host, I'll post up a sample.
 
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Omniscient said:
Don't be so ignorant.
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Say that to those people who barely hear it. I bet, they have volume knobs on their amplifiers.

How loud is your master anyways? If it's significantly louder than -14 dBFS RMS sine, you shouldn't exactly expect a good sound. Watch my signature!
Omniscient said:
Where can I host songs?
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Just use some general file hoster instead. For example: http://www.zshare.net/
The quality will remain exactly the way the file is.
 
Omniscient said:
...People can't really hear the mix because it's peak is around -12db FS, unless they crank the crap out of their speakers. When I master the song I use a spectrum analyzer and try to lessen some of the low frequency humps. The 4k+ range is all falling in place where it should. After Eqing I use a multiband compressor and then use L2 as a limiter on the end.
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Just to be clear, I take it they must have heard the -12 version?
If the raw mix all ready fairly dense and in control, no stray peaks, you get to push it 12-14 right there for free.
 
Have you made sure that its loudest peak is like -0.2db? If not theres some volume without needing to reduce dynamic range.
 
The last 2 posts is what I was thinking. Why don't you just TURN UP THE MIX??? I f you have 12db (or whatever) of headroom, then just make it LOUDER. You don't need a limiter for that.
 
Yeah. I'm still kind of new to this. I've done some playing around and the crushing is definitely coming from the kick drum. It sounds good, but there's a 125hz hump that's getting pushed through the limiter, squashing everything else. When I cut out the 125hz hump, the mix just sounds weak, the kick sounds fake(well it's DFH, but with a little EQ it sounds reasonably good) as hell but there's no crushing.

Maybe I should try a little more compression, not so much frequency cutting?

I have some screen shots and stuff I'll post up with a sample when I got free time.

Thanks again guys.
 
Omniscient said:
Yeah. I'm still kind of new to this. I've done some playing around and the crushing is definitely coming from the kick drum. It sounds good, but there's a 125hz hump that's getting pushed through the limiter, squashing everything else. When I cut out the 125hz hump, the mix just sounds weak, the kick sounds fake(well it's DFH, but with a little EQ it sounds reasonably good) as hell but there's no crushing.

Maybe I should try a little more compression, not so much frequency cutting?

I have some screen shots and stuff I'll post up with a sample when I got free time.

Thanks again guys.
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If it's the kick that is so far over the mix, it's just too loud. You need to bring the bass up around it.
 
you may have when you just started recording everything, initially didn't set your recording input loud enough and you built your mix around something that was to low to begin with??? idk
 
The first reason I see here is tht you are not a mastering engineer. Most likely you do not have a set of speakers worthy of mastering on in a room tuned for them. You probably also have no experience mastering in the real sense and are probably using tools and equipment that do not lend to what you want and need them to do.

Second, your mix probably is not ready yet and is probably related to the lack of experience and equipment from above, and then there is also the possibility that the band is not ready either.

All of these things have to be in place if you honestly expect to compare your mix to those that are tried and true. If you want to match that kind of production then you need to utilize that kind of producion. That being said, whether it is right or wrong, good or bad, your mix needs to be at a certain volume level or you WILL lose business. I don't have to be happy with the current volume trend, but if I want to be succesful and continue to keep business then I do have to accept it.
 
Omniscient said:
I was just wondering what caused this? Is it too much low end? This is a death metal project I'm doing, so I cut out as much of the bass and mud as I could without sacrificing a good sound.
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The problem is definitely with the glockenspiel track.

It's way too loud. And the kazoo solo is taking up too much sonic real estate and masking the kick drum.

And that Salvation army band thing ... while intriguing as a concept, it's just too heavily compressed and saturated.

How the hell am I supposed to know what you need to do with your stuff, man? :D Holy crap. Why don't I use my mental telepathy and synchronize my brain waves with your multitrack, and I'll get back with ya later ?

.
 
Apparently, the last time I posted this it went un-noticed, so here...

WE CAN'T HELP YOU AT ALL UNTIL YOU POST YOUR SONG IN SOME FASHION, SOMEWHERE!
 
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