tom tom ringing while the rest of the kit is being played

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kristian

kristian

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Ok, so i travelled with all my setup to wher ei can record drums this weekend (my parents house 2 hours away - so its not being touched) . And im planning on going back the next 2 weekends. I spent this weekend mainly getting the sound down which by today in the morning was getting pretty alright. But i noticed that the tom tom mics pick up the toms ringing while the other drums are being played. Its not noticeable on loud/fast parts. But even loud and slow it is. The toms sound nice, i COULD gate them, but the mics for the toms are at about -36 when im going at the kick and snare so gating would sound like CRAP unles i triggered them. Are there any solutions to stopping them ringing besides triggering them? I'm not familiar with triggers really. If they will keep the gates open until the skin stops major reverberation and stuff liekt that it could work. But i don't want it just take the hits, no ring. It has a nice ring.

to top it all off, today i had to stop and drive back to austin becuase i put a hole through the kickdrum's head.
 
Specifically what drum tracks are the toms bleeding into and what microphones are you using to mic them?

Carl
 
Whoops

Nevermind, I reread your post. :D

Tell me, do you believe that the toms are ringing out of resonant frequency (sympathy for rest of the kit) or due to shock/vibration?



Carl
 
tomsssss

ok, the two rack toms which are attached to the kick drum (Yamaha stage custom) ring because they are empty i believe. Its like the vibrations of the snare also affect it. BUT the floor tom which is actually hanging from the ride stand also rings. You see, this is normal while playing, but since the toms are close miced they are loud. i don't have mute automation :D hehehe. But i could just ride the mute buttons for the toms during mixing, too much of a lain. its really only happening on this song which has a slow beat leaves time to hear the ringing over the hits.
 
no you may not. then the toms will sound like shite. I currently solved the problem by just muting the tom mics. the overheads basically pick them up nicely. but there are times when the power of close miced toms just has that little edge. its funny because i've miced this kit before, and i didn't have this problem. of course its a different position for the mics.
 
duct tape isn't that bad if you use it right...just use a 2" square folded in the centre to create a little tab an stick it right next to the edge o the head, like an upside down T.... or a 2" square that goes from the head to the rim works well too... this won't effect your sound a hell of a lot, but it does soften that ring...if you mic it right it can fatten up your tom sound too.
 
Ringing? Pick it up and say hello.
If you own a drum key might I suggest that you get to know it. A well tuned drum kit will have very little ring if any between drums. Don't think that tweeking just the batter head will solve your problem. Put that key on the resonant head. Take your time on tuning. I like to have a kit I'm going to record on site at least 24 hrs. before hand so they can acclimate to the envionment. Old heads are a real bitch to tune as well. Duct tape on drums? Not just no but hell no!! Check for drum contact with any other objects, other drums and stands.
 
my girlfriend saw your post thornapple...... she said "no duct tape? can't be a real drummer" (i guess i should tell her that it is cheating! hehehehe), but your right if you really want to, you should do the job properly, but i disagree about old heads... i like old heads better... i've got some two year old fibre skins (no tape) on my kit and i think they are sounding there best now. but hey each to their own... if we all did the same thing then i geuss the whole deal would become quite boring.
 
1 - there is nothing wrong with tape, even the best drummers in the world use it.
2 - resonance like that is natural and normal, its part of any kit, no matter how well you tune it.
3 - there is one trick you can use, which is cutting a perfect round hole in an old head, leaving about 2" around the perimiter, then putting that over the bottom head and re-tune. If the resonance is caused by the heads, this will get rid of it without effecting the sound.
4 - only bad drums don't resonate :)
 
sorry sjoko, i don't know how long you have been playing drums. but you should be able to fix it without tape. Any drummer worth their salt that i know doesn't use tape, unless something has gone drastically wrong at the last second. I was asking if people had any solutions, like tune the power head so and so, make the 5th lug tighter etc.

If i could explain the problem better, it seems like the tom toms are amplifiying rather then just resonating. Its like i placed the mic in a good spot for sound, but it picks up a strange ring, or the skins need to be replaced. I basically answered my own question.
 
I don't know anything about drums really.

But hold on............... let me go and have a look in the tracking room, there is a kit there ........... back in a sec.

Done! Had a good look. Funny that, all the toms have small bits of tape, some felt and tape. Must be a kit belonging to some wannabe drummer. His name is Aynsley Dunbar. Oh well, he'll never amount to anything with all his tape and shit.
Lemme have another think. Who did I record before that? Jota Morelli. Think ........ yup, tape. And before that? Manu Katché - with tape.

Thanks kristian! I've seen the light! These guys aren't worth their salt as drummers!! I'm gonna find me some real drummers!;)
 
sjoko2
Hey man no one doubts the talent of those drummers. However humbleness goes further in life than spite. I believe a question was asked in hopes of answers from different thinking professionals. I was not aware that when we come here to share knowledge that it was an excuse for name dropping and showing off your resume'. B.F.D. If this is a chest beating bbs then see ya!
 
And if you knew me any better, or had been here a bit longer, then you'd also know that I can be very sarcastic sometimes, and, furthermore, that I have no bones whatever to pick with kristian.
So if you can't take it, I suggest you definately skip reading anything I post:rolleyes:
 
yea, sjoko is what he said, sarcastic, and not a drummer. i just don't agree with that. I just really believe there IS another way. There are always ways to be broken. If one thinks the toms sound good with tape, then go ahead especially if someone like me can't tell :). but when i put on a 1 inch by .5 inch piece of tape on there (my kit), it takes the largeness of the toms away. especially on the 10" tom.
 
Im no expert.

kristian said:
sorry sjoko, i don't know how long you have been playing drums. but you should be able to fix it without tape. Any drummer worth their salt that i know doesn't use tape....

If i could explain the problem better, it seems like the tom toms are amplifiying rather then just resonating.
Click to expand...


I began playing drums back in 1975, I played in school and in bands, My 1st job as a tech in the studio was to set up the drums. I find it difficult to swallow the fact that a good drummer, meaning a musical skill, can use that to directly impact the quality of a drum. Drums and drummers are 2 independent issues. Do you believe that Terry Bozzio or Mike Mangini can take away a $50 SEARS tom ring or rattle?
Anyone who thinks he can ever set up a 9 piece to rid the kit of all the rings and rattles without the use of tape, gauze, kleenex or patience ought to sell the drums and play guitar instead. There is the drum quality issue as well, unless youve spent 10 grand on a custom set, dealing with the maunfacturers and working out the details, the quality will vary quite a bit. Manufacturing tolerances, thermal and moisture content all change how drums will sound. The key here,use what ever it takes to get the sound you want, tape or no tape. Besides when you get to the point where you get into a big studio, the engineer and support tech will set up your stuff for you, with or without your cooperation. :0)

The resonance verses amplifying situation is really just resonance. The laws of physicswithin accoustics state that a reflection can never be louder than the source of the sound wave. It might be a preception because the resonant frequency is in the 3k to 7k range where your hearing is more sensitive.


Peace,
Dennis
 
That is more or less an "always the problem" problem. In recording, more often then not, it is a trade-off between big sound and ringing. Simply because a drum IS a resonate instrument, the more resonant, the more it reacts to surrounding noises, even if it isn't played itself.

You can tune a drum so the resonance decreases - with it goes the sound - and it goes in a much worse way then when you use a small 'whatever' to dampen it juuuuuuuust enough. You can use tape, felt, I often use small pieces of steri-strip fastened with a small band-aid.

First thing to do is to make absolutely sure it is not the tom's hardware that causes the problem. All to often that is a problem. In an ideal world every mounting on a shell should be made of stainless, connected to the "outside world" via a non-resonance transmitting material. I've often had one tom that wasn't quite right while the othes on the kit were, and changing the hoops worked.

In recording itself there are a lot of techniques to overcome the problem, but you have to consider that everything is a trade-off.
A lot depends on tracking room acoustics, the better it is, the easier to get it right.

In an ideal world you should capture the immediate attack with close-milking, the ambience with room and overhead mics. Often the close-in mics will be gated. The problem there is that there are not many good gates, and no cheap ones at all.

A couple of other often used ways are, funny enough, direct opposites. One is milking the toms really really close, getting the mic as close as possible to the point of impact, which allows you to reduce the level of the mic, thereby reducing the resonance effect in the tracks. The other wayplace the mics as far from the toms as possible, so as not to capture the resonance. However, the latter is a play-off with the rest of the kit.

Personally, my 'normal' way of tracking drums is very close milking, with mic aim depending on drummer style / sound. I place a lot of emphasis on overheads and room mics, with often well over half of the drum sound coming from those.
Normally I have the kit surround very well baffled sides and rear, to avoid spill, and the front open, to create ambiance.
 
yea its odd, as my gear increased, and my experimenting with the overheads increased, i have a pretty good overhead sound, and im thinking for this song, the close mics don't even make that much of a difference... BUT i don't want to come to the mixing period and wished i had done something different with the micing. i might try sticking the mics a little closer. might try different heads, maybe coated heads wont ring as much. etc... maybe i will cover the ENTIRE skin in duct tape ;)
 
It's hard to believe that sjoko and I actually agree on something ;), but he's absoloutely right about all the "big name" drummers using tape on their kits.

Because of my job, I've been on the stage at Soldier Field in Chicago during several major concerts that include the likes of the Rolling Stones, U2, Grateful Dead, Pink Floyd, and several other well-known bands. The one thing I recall that all the drummers had in common is that they all had tape on their drums. Sometimes it was a very small amount, other times (like the drummer for the Dead) it was a significant amount.

Another good point that was made is that it's not the drummer that sets up the kit, it's a drum-tech that takes care of business in that respect.

So, it's okay to go with the Tim Allen approach now and then...

"If you can't fix it, duck it!"
 
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