This has been bugging me for years!

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alexofsalmacis

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Hello, I'm Alex.

I've got a little home recording set up based around a Pentium 4 128Mb Ram PC. I've got a SoundBlaster 16PCI soundcard. The problem is that when I record drum machine, that is plugged into the line in of the computer, the audio recording I get back is not the sound I was getting back when I was playing the instrument live. For example, the kick drum which sounded nice and fat and weighty when I'm played it live has become sort of hollow. It's like been sucked of it's punch! I always end up putting back what I think I've lost with my EQ but it never quite hits the mark. It's just frustrating to know that, however much work I put into creating a good drum sound, when it comes to recording the MIDI data as audio ready for the final mixdown I will be confronted with a sappier version of my sounds! Maybe it's the soundcard? Could anyone help?

Alex
 
It is your sound card. You won't be able to capture exactly what you hear out of your own ears. Only something that nearly represents that. Your on the right path with using the EQ to help fix things, but great signal chain and you playing great, and it'll a lot sound better. Soundblaster 16 is no where near good.
 
Cheers. When you say 'what you hear out of your own ears', do you realise that what I'm hearing is the drum machine plugged into the computer's soundcard and coming through my speakers? Do you think my soundcard can reproduce the drum sound accurately live but it can't reproduce it when it records the live signal? Much thanks.

Alex
 
alexofsalmacis said:
Do you think my soundcard can reproduce the drum sound accurately live but it can't reproduce it when it records the live signal?
Click to expand...

Mindset has already answered that question and the answer is 'yes' to the convoluted way you've phrased your question and a big 'no' to your cheap soundcard.

Get a new soundcard.

Even one of these would be a big improvement over what you've got now.

http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--BEHUCA202


.
 
Thank you Mr. Scientist for your warm welcome to homerecording.com. You probably won't see me on here again.

Alex
 
alexofsalmacis said:
Thank you Mr. Scientist for your warm welcome to homerecording.com. You probably won't see me on here again.

Alex
Click to expand...

Get over it. Christ, he even pointed you towards a cheap servicable solution to your problem. Just cuz he didn't sit down and have tea with you is no reason to get all pissy. Did you come here for advice or for a love-in?
 
Sorry and thank you!

Just like to apologise to Mr. Scientist and for being rude to him and say thank you for taking the time to point me in the right direction for soundcards. And to Andyhix, hope there are no hard feelings. I'll try to not be a prat next time! Alex
 
So let me see if I am understanding this:

You are taking the (audio) line out of a drum machine, and putting that through the inputs of your soundblaster?

If I have that right, then a new audio interface (one that does 24-bit 96KHz for example) and/or a mixer might help.
 
Why the hell are you still using a soundblaster 16. Joke? :eek:

If you got a pentium 4 computer I'm willing to bet that the built-in sound board has better quality convertors.

You're talking about a card that was made back in 1992 for video games and was crap to begin. :D

Perhaps you should think upgrading or switching to the on-board convertors. You'll be more likely to get better results. LOL!!:D
 
When I got my computer five years ago, I tried recording vocals through the microphone input and there was an incredible hissing and a constant ringing sound. I came to the conclusion that it was the crap in built soundcard. When I installed the Soundblaster 16 all the noise disappeared!
 
i may be wrong
but it sounds like you are a solo musician that doesn't need to record more that 2 tracks at the same time. your probably never going to open your studio to the public, but you also want the quality of your personal music project to sound as good as your money will allow for. unless you are going to have 20 30 or 50 tracks at mixdown you probably don't really need an $800 computer.
you might want to look into something like this

http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--TASDP01

that way you can take your studio anywhere you want, and since you already have a computer you can send your mix to the computer and do some final mastering to your stereo mix and spit out a cd, or send an mp3 of your music to the Internet.

again, i apologize if i got you wrong, but i though this might help if your just a solo musician.
---mike---
 
In some instances when recording stuff in digital seems to be more flat, dull and lifeless, but once you learn some basic mixing techniques with eq, compression and effects. You can bring some of those qualities back to a recording.

It's just a matter of patience and willingless to learn various aspects of acoustics, mixing and listening skills.

From the drum samples I've heared off different drum machines I'm willing bet alot of the hissing noise your getting is from the machine itself. With a little practise with eq you could remove alot of the hissing noise without effecting all the other drum elements from you drum mix.

With a little Compression you could bring back a bit of that punchyness of drum recordings.


alexofsalmacis said:
Hello, I'm Alex.

I've got a little home recording set up based around a Pentium 4 128Mb Ram PC. I've got a SoundBlaster 16PCI soundcard. The problem is that when I record drum machine, that is plugged into the line in of the computer, the audio recording I get back is not the sound I was getting back when I was playing the instrument live.

For example, the kick drum which sounded nice and fat and weighty when I'm played it live has become sort of hollow. It's like been sucked of it's punch!
Click to expand...

Hollowness is usually like a form of boxiness. This usually requires cutting frequency around the 400hz.

Here is a a more or less exact quote from the "Mixing Engineer hand book" by Bobby Ownsinski
Even some sounds that are recorded well can be lifeless, thanks to certain frequencies being overemphasized or others being serverely attenuated. More often than not, the lack of definition of an instrument is because of too much lower midrange in approximately the 400 to 800Hz area. This area adds a "boxy" quality to the sounds.(Hollowness, tube like sound)

A) Set the boost/cut knob to a moderate level of cut (8 or 10 dB should work).

B) Sweep through the frequencies until you find the frequency where the sound has the least amount of boxiness and the most definitioin.

C) Adjust the amount of cut to taste. Be aware that too much cut will cause the sound to be thinner.

D) If rquired, add some "point" to sound by adding a slight amount(start with only a dB; add more to tast) of upper midrange (1kHz to 4kHz).

E) if required, add some "sparkle" to sound by adding a slight amount of high frquencies (5kHz to 10kHz).

F) If required, add some "air" to sound by adding a light amount often brillance frequencies(10kHz to 15kHz).

PLEASE NOTE!:
Always try attenuating (cutting) the frequency firest. This is preferable because all equalizers add phase shift as you boost, which results in a undesirabe coloring of sound. Usually, the more EQ you add, the more phase shift is also added and harder it will be to fit the instrument into the mix. Many engineers are judicious in their us of EQ. That being said, anything goes! If it sounds good, it is good.
Click to expand...


ps Sorry about earlier comment about sb 16, but you should still really consider upgrading the card to using 24 bit technology. More bits are know to add better quality to low end frequency as well as overall dynamics. If I can find this information I'll post a link ASAP.
 
alexofsalmacis said:
Cheers. When you say 'what you hear out of your own ears', do you realise that what I'm hearing is the drum machine plugged into the computer's soundcard and coming through my speakers? Do you think my soundcard can reproduce the drum sound accurately live but it can't reproduce it when it records the live signal? Much thanks.
Click to expand...

Does the SB card have hardware play-through enabled? If so, then yes. If not, then that seems unlikely to be the problem.
 
jmarques said:
ps Sorry about earlier comment about sb 16, but you should still really consider upgrading the card to using 24 bit technology. More bits are know to add better quality to low end frequency as well as overall dynamics. If I can find this information I'll post a link ASAP.
Click to expand...

Uh... no. It provides for more dynamic range so you don't have to set levels as hot when recording. That is all. Not saying that the SB 16 vs. SB 24 doesn't behave the way you say, but if it does, it's because the SB 16 is crappy hardware and the SB 24 is less crappy hardware, not because of anything specific to 16-bit vs. 24-bit.


jmarques said:
Hollowness is usually like a form of boxiness. This usually requires cutting frequency around the 400hz.
Click to expand...

In my experience, hollow-sounding recordings are usually caused by a hole in the spectrum, not by too much of anything. This is often caused by two channels being out of phase with each other, but you can also get a similar effect when you use a notch filter or when you sing into the null side of a cardioid mic. Your mileage may vary, of course.
 
Ok here the link as promise:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may06/articles/rogernichols_0506.htm

Happy Reading Y'all!!


Sorry about the web link, but the actual magazine easier to read then website IMO.

ps Let me just say before I go. Mixing is like if you have one problem there are many ways to solve it, but the trick is knowing which one works for you. So don't be afraid to explore different techiques and maybe this one will help you or maybe it won't. But if you never try it how are you ever gonna know if it works or it doesn't.

GL
 
jmarques said:
Ok here the link as promise:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may06/articles/rogernichols_0506.htm

Happy Reading Y'all!!
Click to expand...

This article is full of it. First, perception of sound is not based on the first derivative of the signal. It is based on the signal. Thus, the error in the amount of jump between two samples does not define the sound. The error in the total level defines the error.

Basic statistics teaches us that the average error introduced by 16 bits instead of 24 bits, regardless of frequency, is half of one bit error, or 1/65536th of the input signal level, or about 0.002%. 700%, my ass.

I'm not saying that 24-bit reproduction doesn't result in a theoretical enhancement to the accuracy of sound, but it is so small that it should be orders of magnitude below the threshold of human perception if your input levels are set optimally for 16-bit recording (not quite clipping). By using 24-bit, you don't have to care about the levels as much because of that extra precision.
 
"In some instances when recording stuff in digital seems to be more flat, dull and lifeless, but once you learn some basic mixing techniques with eq, compression and effects. You can bring some of those qualities back to a recording...

...With a little Compression you could bring back a bit of that punchyness of drum recordings."

I don't think that's the issue here. You can't repair something that doesn't exist in the first place. If a frequency is missing, you can't boost it...no matter what kind of eq u have, it's not going to magically appear if it wasn't recorded in the first place.

"Hello, I'm Alex.

I've got a little home recording set up based around a Pentium 4 128Mb Ram PC. I've got a SoundBlaster 16PCI soundcard. The problem is that when I record drum machine, that is plugged into the line in of the computer, the audio recording I get back is not the sound I was getting back when I was playing the instrument live. For example, the kick drum which sounded nice and fat and weighty when I'm played it live has become sort of hollow. It's like been sucked of it's punch! I always end up putting back what I think I've lost with my EQ but it never quite hits the mark. It's just frustrating to know that, however much work I put into creating a good drum sound, when it comes to recording the MIDI data as audio ready for the final mixdown I will be confronted with a sappier version of my sounds! Maybe it's the soundcard? Could anyone help?

Alex"

I can't believe nobody asked this already...but exactly what recording software are you using, Alex? This could be PART of the problem (the crappy sound card is still the big issue).
 
I get sick of hearing people say digital is "lifeless" or "dull". It is whatever you put into it. Maybe the songs or performances are lifeless or dull.

And I doubt the software has anything to do with the crappy sound, that's the last place you should look (disregarding sample rate/bit depth settings in the software which are important, or if you're using some crappy effects).

Also, if you're running a line out signal directly into the line in of the sound card (like a drum machine), there should be very little-to-no noticeable degradation to the sound quality. I don't care how crappy of a sound card you get, if there is a noticeable difference between what's going in and the final product then there is something seriously wrong.

I've used the SB Live 24-bit card for years. Only difference I heard was more noise and less clarity. If you're hearing a "hollow" sound or other noticeable effect then something isn't hooked up right. :confused:
 
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