Thinking of going digital (for under $800)

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Nailsman

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I've been a relatively happy Tascam 424 MKIII user for the last 15 months. This was my first investment in home recording, and the setup I've got is: record to the Tascam (mostly duo classical guitars, but I've got a CD project where I've got up to 5 tracks of variety of instruments - gotta love bouncing, and I do some quartet recording also, using all 4 Tascam channels), mixdown to a CD burner (TDK DA-3826), then on to my computer for final editing (ripping to wav. file using EAC and using Cool Edit for editing, spicing, etc... ).
I've recently had some scares with tape wobble (where the tape gets wound too tight and pulls, and you hear that warble in a sustained note), and I'm thinking of moving over to a digital medium. From the research I've done for under $800 I've got two choices: the Boss BR-1180 and the Tascam 788.

Pros for the Boss: tons of effects, drum tracks, big 20 G HD
Cons for the Boss; only 2 channels recored simultaneously

Pros for the Tascam: up to 4 tracks recorded simultaneously (very user friendly?)
Cons for the Tascam: only 10 Gig HD, no nifty effects, no drums

Between these two models, does one clearly win out over the other? Any other models I'm leaving out?
Thanks!
Brian
 
I'm confused, Why don't you spend that $800 on a better soundcard and save the extra cash for a mic? Why not use cool edit for the whole process?

If you record everything into the boss your music may end up sounding like the boss (crap).
 
Jake,
I never really thought about recording directly to my computer; what attracted me to the tascam/Boss models is their similar layout to my tascam 424. So you think I should toss the idea of buying a digital portastudio, and just upgrade my soundcard and buy some recording software? I know that Cool edit (I'm using the cheapo version, not Cool Edit Pro) has a plug in for about $65 for 4 track recording (as I recall). And I guess I'd need some interface to plug the mikes into my sound card (you can see I'm a neophyte here). And my computer only has a 6 gig HD, so I'd need to buy a bigger HD, right?
So is it the general consensus that recording directly into your computer beats our the portastudios like the tascam 788/Boss 1180, and their ilk?
Thanks
Brian
SS454 - I've got a bunch of wav files I could send you; or I could convert them over to MP3 i suppose. Can you post these sort of formats here?
 
Nailsman, if I were you I'd pick up Vegas pro for $199 or the pro version of cool edit and an Echi Mia (2 balanced inputs around $200) and use the porta for a mixer preamp until you can get a better one like this. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=910718153

Still under $800 and the editing will toast the crap you have to do on a tiny screen to make clean edits. Spend the extra cash on a dedicated audio harddrive and youre set to go!!
 
Don't overlook / forget Fostex VF-16 (the older model) or VF-160 (the current model, $799 @ Musiciansfriend.com) 16 track recorders. One thing is certain you can never have too many tracks. With Fostex you can record up to 8 tracks at a time and connecting to computer is easy if you have a soundcard with Adat interface. With computer-adat card-fostex combo you can combine both direct to computer and on location to Fostex recording with minimal of effort. Search for my other posts on this subject for further infomation.
 
Lots of happy Tascam 788 users here at this forum for the 788. Well worth a look if you're thinking of getting one:

http://209.216.16.19/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=13&DaysPrune=1000

I've recently gone back to using a Tascam 424 after two years recording on a PC and find it much more fun. I'm probably going to buy a 788 in a couple of weeks.

BTW the 788 can record six tracks at once and has lots of onboard effects. One of the design team moderates the forum and he said the onboard reverb is as good as a Nanoverb - not great but better than I would have expected.
 
To me the 788 looks seriously limited in many ways compared to Fostex. 788 has no phantom powered mic inputs, no digital inputs what so ever, only SPDIF digital out etc. If you're ever likely to work on both computer and recorder then Fostex should be the obvious choice.
 
Both the VF16 and the 788 have been comprehensively and favourably reviewed in Sound on Sound. The reviews are available online here: http://www.sospubs.co.uk

The VF16 looks a nice machine. 16 tracks would be very nice. In both cases you have to weigh up the total package and see which suits you best re: price and features. Like Yamaha's new baby the AW16G, the VF16 is 16 bit whereas the 788 is 24 bit, which may may an important factor for some people. Version 2 of the 788 OS allows import and export of wav files, allowing you to record on the 788 and edit on a PC if you want - though you'd have to buy the CD burner for the 788 to be able to do this.
 
Peterhalo/Artwork - thanks SOOOoooo much for the feedback; I'm gonna dig into those reviews and it looks like the Boss is out, its between the tascam 788 and the Fostex VF16. Price point is a consideration, as my local store is selling the 788s for $600, a pretty good price.
Which reminds me, Artwork, you said: "the 788 OS allows import and export of wav files, allowing you to record on the 788 and edit on a PC if you want - though you'd have to buy the CD burner for the 788 to be able to do this"; My CD burner (TDK DA-3826) ought to allow me to burn (i.e. mix down) a CD from my digital tracks on the 788 and rip them off the CD onto my computer for editing, right? (I use Exact Audio Copy for ripping off the CD into wav files). In other words, there's no reason to spend the x=tra bucks on the 788 CD burner component piece, right?
Thanks for all the links and info folks. This discussion group is a wonderful resource for information.
Brian
 
Just FYI, I'm moving up this month from a Porta 414 MKII, and I've been researching DAWs from about two months now via the websites, mags, chat rooms, and the like. Each machine has its pros and cons, as you smartly realize, but I've found the weight of opinion (wiser than mine) to fall on the side of the new Yamaha aw16g. You can find more on it everywhere, and I've found the lowest price to be $969, tax/shipping inclluded, via one of the on-line stores (email for the best prices). The biggest drawback is the 16-bit limit, but as my producer friends point out:
this doesn't mean much (at the moment) since CDs will not accept higher than 16-bit. This will probably change someday, but still.
The unit has two sets of effects, easy setup, plenty of actual knobs to twiddle, onboard drums (and import/export capability),and eight tracks simulanteous. Lots of good stuff, and some good Yama reputation and support (I've called them directly to chat about the 16g, and they've been very helpful).

Anyhow, good luck. Just thought my own experience, from a 40-something semi-pro studio guitarist), might help in some way.

Then again, maybe just upgrading your computer would be easiest for you? Ah well...

J.
 
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I'd say upgrade the computer, get a Delta series card (like the 44.. four ins and four outs) and use n-Track.

You could go to full featured 32+ track recording with unlimited effects (or rather... only limited by the speed of your computer) and the convenience of full editing control in a PC environment for much less than $800. (depending on how nice of a computer you currently have).

Even if you didn't have a computer at all, I could get a DAW worthy computer for 500 bucks, throw in a Delta 44 for $200 and get n-Track for $65, and you've got a complete 24bit recording station for under $800.

WATYF
 
I just purchased the Yamaha AW16G recently; purely because I wanted portability and quick access to sliders and buttons (and I'm not ready to go the laptop/controller route yet ~cost primarily~). I can actually put the AW16G in my laptop bag, though it doesn't completely zip closed on top.

I also built my own computer, with a 24/96 8in/8out card, SCSI drive, the works, but for some of us, the current choices of software and plugins is so amazing that I actually wasn't getting any music written as I spent most of my time fiddling with new apps and reading articles trying to decide which VST host would be the best investment! I'll still use the computer for editing and fiddling about, as well as anything else the AW16G can't do well(and to be quite honest, I really wanted the instant gratification of sliders and buttons! Perhaps I'm old school!) Plus, the 16G can be used as a controler for a number of computer apps.

p.s. I paid 1099 for the 16G from Guitar Center, but I just saw an AMAZING deal at musiciansbuy.com where they are throwing in more than two hundred dollars worth of extras (two different options: one with two mics, stands, headphones, and 30 blank cds, the other is a speaker system and headphones) Check it out as I think the deal might be ending soon as it says 'limited time offer'

p.s.s. Believe it or not, but Guitar Center actualy honored the deal and gave me all the same stuff AFTER I had already bought the 16G. Amazing considering so many people bad mouth GC.

**I haven't read all of the posts availbale on this site yet related to the Korg D1200 but I'm really wondering what it has over the AW16G other than the bit rate and drive space (the bit rate is no good to me if no one can hear the differnece in a side-by-side, and apparantly at 24bit the number of tracks is limited).

Sorry for the long post, but this is my first post here and this place is an oasis as I've been searching the web for weeks looking for the kind of info people are sharing here!

Very cool, thanks, and good luck!

~3des
 
jeffree said:
The biggest drawback is the 16-bit limit, but as my producer friends point out:
this doesn't mean much (at the moment) since CDs will not accept higher than 16-bit. This will probably change someday, but still.
Click to expand...

jeff -

it's good to have well-meaning friends, even if they are producers. but it's not good to take their advice in areas outside their expertise.

analog is infinite bit. so by their logic, there would be no advantage to recording analog since CD's are only 16 bit. viewed this way, you can see how their argument falls apart.

the reason why recording at 24 bit is far superior in theory has been discussed to death. Increased dynamic range, lower noise, less rounding errors, smoother fades, better stereo imaging, etc. give you a superior result (in theory) even when the ultimate destination is 16 bit media. why this is so may not be intuitive, but if you insist we can rehash the reasons in more detail some other time.

the reason why i keep saying "in theory" is because this discussion assumes at least equal quality converters. If not, sometimes a high quality 16 bit converter will sound better than a crappy 24 bit one.

i'm not arguing one way or another as to which recorder you should get. i'm only saying the argument that "bits don't matter because CD's are still only 16 bit" is badly flawed, and should not be among the reasons you consider in making your purchasing decision.

good luck with your purchase!
 
Have any one of you had the chance to compare the AW16G to the VF160 head to head? Looking at the specs those two look quite similar except for some features that the other has and the other don't.

Fostex VF160
+ about 75% cheaper recording media, 3.5" vs. 2.5" of Yamaha
+ ADAT i/o, enables expanding the system with external components and makes working with computer much easier
- the bass EQ sucks

Yamaha AW16g
+ balanced inputs 3 - 8
+ high-Z guitar input
+ sampler, but who needs it? Get a Zoom sampletrak if you need to play with samples

Since I own the VF16 I'm a bit biased to say that I'd choose the Fostex mainly for the ADAT I/O.
 
Another computer based platform not mentioned here yet is the Digi1 protools system. I guess that the Tascam 428 usb based computer interface with vegas and a 30gb hd can be had for 800.
 
Nailsman said:
Which reminds me, Artwork, you said: "the 788 OS allows import and export of wav files, allowing you to record on the 788 and edit on a PC if you want - though you'd have to buy the CD burner for the 788 to be able to do this"; My CD burner (TDK DA-3826) ought to allow me to burn (i.e. mix down) a CD from my digital tracks on the 788 and rip them off the CD onto my computer for editing, right? (I use Exact Audio Copy for ripping off the CD into wav files). In other words, there's no reason to spend the x=tra bucks on the 788 CD burner component piece, right?
Click to expand...

You can use any burner with the 788, connected to the digital out. However, this would just be for finished mixed down songs. To back up individual tracks you need either Tascam CDR788 or CDRW788, or the TEAC equivalents - CD-R56S, CD-R58S, CD-W512S, CD-R624S. The TEACS might need a case, power supply and cable bought separately, but the drives are currently for available for next to nothing on Ebay. I just missed buying one for £20.
 
the little ole 788 is a winner man..... ....Ive never done the wave file export thing, but my understanding is that you would be able to record at 24 bit, convert it to wave, and edit (or whatever) on a 'puter..... then import back into the 788, never losing any fidelity. By using data-files (w/ the 788 compatible drives mentioned above), its a clean transfer w/ no degradation from your original 24 bit signal. Where as, sending a signal through the digital out (spdif) into any burner would drop the bit rate to 16 at the cd. ...correct me if im wrong somebody.
.....In terms of the 788 itself, Its a very intuitive, feature packed little machine for its incredibly cheap price. Ive been very pleased w/ mine.
 
Maybe in the hadicapped class. If the 16 vs 24 bits would be the only factor to consider then I would agree with you but there's lot more to it than just. There's thousands of great sounding recordings made with 16 bit technology in the last 20 years and I believe that you can never make a home studio environment quiet enough to take the full advantage of the extra resolution that 24bit offers. After all according to the 788 specs the dynamic range of 788 is only >82dB(!) which is way way way less than the well over 100dB range of true 24 bit systems. I'd feel cheated if I'd paid for 24 bit technology and in return get 16bit quality which seems to be the case here. And you can't even use external AD converters to benefit from the 24 bit technology in 788 because these NO DIGITAL INPUTS in 788. You must do better than this to convince me.
 
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