The truth about pres ??? Your comments please...

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philboy

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Hello evryone!

I'm lookking to upgrade my home studio. This is my present rig:

MICS:

Rode NT2
AKG C451B
Sennheiser MD441
SM57

-Quality Digiflex balanced cables

PRES:

Joemeek VC6Q
Presonus Eureka
Bellari Dual Tube pre RP220

OTHER:

Event 2020 BAS monitors
M-AUDIO DELTA 66 soundcard
Lexicon MPX550 multi-fx
Mackie VLZ pro mixer

I'm mostly recording my own material (vox, accoustic guitar, electric guitar/bass (direct) and some acoustic projects as well.

My first pre was the Bellari RP220 dual tube. Sounded much much better than the Mackie mixer. A few months later, after hours of reading, I wanted a more "colorful" pre and after reading many boards like this one I went for a Joemeek VC6Q. When I got it I was in a hurry to try it and finally hear that “joemeek” signature sound. Well, it sounded good...but… Better than the Bellari??? No. Different from the Bellari??? No !!!
Of course with the compressor and EQ in, that’s a different story, but I’m talking about preamps only… Then recently I thought I’d upgrade a step further and went for a Presonus Eureka solid state Class A pre. Many serious reviews praised this channel strip, and some mentioned items recorded through this channel sounded “stunning”. I went for this and guess what? Although the Eureka is bit quieter and have more gain, it still sounds exactly the same as the joemeek AND the Bellari (which are 3 different designs). I made a lot of A/B comparaison with the three of them and very honestly i can’t tell the difference!!! And I have good ears. I asked a few family members and musician-friends to listen very carefully to my recordings and no one could detect any subtility between recordings.

I tracked various instruments, and also many sources from my Motif 8 keyboard (different drum kits, brasses, percs, woodwinds, pianos, etc… name it!!!) through all of those pres and i can't tell the difference. I’m often reading “warm up your digital tracks with this or that preamp…” well i can’t tell the difference recording my motif 8 direct than through any of those pres…

I went to “thelisteningsessions.com”. While the difference between different large condenser mics is very evident, I’m not sure I can tell the difference between pres, and we’re talking about solo instruments. If the differences are so subtle in a solo/dry (no fx)/well trated room envorinement, correct me if i’m wrong then I guess this won’t make any difference in a whole busy mix…

So here are my questions:

Could it be my soundcard? Maybe it’s not converting well enough to hear the very subtle sonic differences between pres??? How would you compare a Delta66 with, say, a MOTU or Layla soundcard??? Would upgrading the sound card make a difference???

I’m hearing good things about Avalon, Great River and other hi-end pres… But would such a preamp honestly make a big difference? Most of all starting from what I have, especially the Delta66 soundcard???

Any input, comment or expericnces welcome!!! I just want to discuss and have your point of view!!!

Best regards

Phil
 
Well, by and large you probably won't notice a lot of difference between a lot of the lower end mic pres you've been using. Most of them are probably very similar designs, similar specs, similar construction, etc.

Now it is very true that differences between mic pres is going to be very subtle, and possibly even undetectable to the casual listener. Differences might even be lost on someone with good ears like yourself. Although I'm somewhat surprized you couldn't hear the difference between a tube and solid state pre.

But anyway, the pricier, more boutique mic pres are something that you may or may not find useful or advantageous in your particular recording situtation. Not everyone needs to have Neves, Hardy's and Cranesongs in their racks. And frankly, it's overkill if you're not doing this kind of thing professionally anyway.


As for your sound card situation, that's a whole nother can 'o wormies. Would better a/d conversion allow you to hear things like mic pre differences? Maybe / maybe not. What you should probably be focusing on right now is improving your monitoring setup. Are your monitors allowing you to hear everything you need to hear ... and even more importantly, is your room accoustically optimal from a design / construction standpoint ... to the point that it is adequate for the highly critical task of accurate monitoring and pinpointing mic pre differences? My guess is probably no, but I could be wrong.
 
In my opinion, the differences between pres are relatively subtle, and vary depending on what you are recording. Abilities to detect the differences will depend largely on your ears and your monitoring chain. Also, the differences are often most evident when you stack up several tracks in a mix. I'm not sure how you are connecting all your gear, either, so it's hard to say what you're hearing. If you are routing everything through the mackie mixer before going to the soundcard, you are going to get some homogenization from the mixer circuitry.

I wouldn't say that the pres you are "upgrading" to are truly upgrades. To my ears, there is a definite jump in quality from cheap mixer pres (at say $20/channel) to the budget outboard pres (say $100/channel). I haven't used the VLZ pres, but reviews suggest they are at least decent. The next jump would be the pres in the $400-$600/channel range (understand that the eureka, at $500, has an eq and compressor in there, so the relative value of the preamp alone is probably in the $200 range, which may not be enough to notice a difference -- the same could be said of the joemeek). Then, you're looking at the >$1000/channel pres for another significant change (though, I have little experience with those pres).
 
Thanks Chessrock and Scrubs!

Chessrock:

"is your room accoustically optimal from a design / construction standpoint ... to the point that it is adequate for the highly critical task of accurate monitoring and pinpointing mic pre differences? My guess is probably no, but I could be wrong."

You're right on this one. Although i have a large room and carpet on floor, i have no acoustic treatment. This is a good point. But let's say i record a drumset from my Motif Keyboard to the pre and monitor through headphones? Wouldn't this compensate, in this particular case, for room treatment?

Scrubs, you maybe right on this one... regarding the eureka, 600$ but all goes to the extra compressor and eq... same low-end pre... Still i wish it sounded "at least different" from the tube Bellari RP220. BTW i use the Mackie only for monitoring, the pres out goes directly to the soundcard ins...


Phil
 
philboy said:
But let's say i record a drumset from my Motif Keyboard to the pre and monitor through headphones? Wouldn't this compensate, in this particular case, for room treatment?
Click to expand...

Are you being serious here, or are you just messin' with me? :D I'm not sure you're getting the idea, there. Try again.
 
I like quality mic preamps. Recently I worked with the Great River MP-2NV, the A Designs MP-2, the Buzz Audio SSA 1.1 and the Millenia TD-1. I found the differences to be significant. Bad converters do negate a lot of differences in gear.
 
ozraves said:
I like quality mic preamps. Recently I worked with the Great River MP-2NV, the A Designs MP-2, the Buzz Audio SSA 1.1 and the Millenia TD-1. I found the differences to be significant. Bad converters do negate a lot of differences in gear.
Click to expand...

What he said. Theres not gonna be a lot of differences in the lower tier stuff, because at that price point..construction/components will be similar...BUT I can tell you without a doubt that the difference between lets say a DBX 786 , DW Fearn VT 2, and a Lunatec V3 is huge.

Teddy
 
philboy said:
But let's say i record a drumset from my Motif Keyboard to the pre and monitor through headphones?
Click to expand...

Is this primarily what you are recording? Direct recording from a keyboard through a pre may or may not yield significantly different results (though, if you check the listening room recordings of drum machines, there are subtle differences in the ways certain pres handle the tightness of the kick drum sample, cymbal crashes, etc.). Acoustic instruments and vocals, recorded with decent microphones will probably yield more noticeable differences between pres, although your room will come into play.
 
Hey Chessrock !

"Are you being serious here, or are you just messin' with me? I'm not sure you're getting the idea, there. Try again"

I just though quality headphones *could* be accurate enough to hear tonal subtilities from different pres, in the case room acoustics are not ideal...but i might be wrong!

Phil
 
This thread is well trodden ground, and there's always posts saying "the difference is huge". What I would love is for someone to post some files illustrating this "huge" difference. I can hear a difference, but honestly, and I have good converters (Lynx II), I've never heard a huge difference. I think there's a tendency to overstate this and build unreasonable expectations for the tight budget home recordist who goes and and spends his (or her) whole budget for the year on a high end pre, only to find that it wasn't the magic bullet they were led to believe it would be.

So, I'm throwing down the guantlet (or guano :) ).....let's hear some clips illustrating the huge difference between a decent budget pre and a *real* pre. Oh, and be honest about it, same mic, same placement, same gain, same pickin or singing.

-RD
 
RobertD,

I don't think it's as much a matter of people deliberately overstating the difference as it is a natural placebo effect. A lot of what people hear is based on expectations. You expect something to be significantly better / different ... and at least to you, it is.

If people would utilize double-blind methods in their comparisons, you'd be getting much different results. Unfortunately, I don't think many here even know what double-blind even is.
 
The truth is that the differences between preamps aren't the kind of thing you can just listen to and automatically know. To really know what the difference is you have to use them in context. There are a lot of pre's that sound pretty similar on first listen, but are radically different once you start placing them in a mix. I do agree though that there are too many people out there that think that a new pre will solve their problems. Problems aren't solved by preamps or mics for that matter. Problems are solved through experience and practice.
 
When and Where

I think i'll play devils advocate. The time and place for good mics and pres is something a pro with experience is going to know. what kind of voice guitar etc. It all plays a part. I've used alot of gear but when you find that gear that works best for the situation you will hear a difference. Example (large diaphram mics add a distinctive sound) make things sound different or (better) small diaphram mic are very accurate. I'm speaking of condensers. Use the small on a good guitar (acoustic) it may sound good use the large it may sound great. All these types of differences add up to the diffference between a pro recording and a home recording. Not to say you can't make somthing that will sound great at home. Hell give Dali one paint color and give me a pallet. who do you think is going to turn out a better painting. however more options is just that. MORE OPTIONS.
 
Is This The Pepsi Challange?

It"s Rigged, Rigged I Tell You!!!!!!!!!!!
 
xstatic said:
Problems are solved through experience and practice.
Click to expand...

can we make this a sticky?

and can we repeat it again and again and again? maybe put it on an infinte tape loop?

or maybe we can tack it to the end of a 2x4 with a rusty 16-penny nail, so we can beat people over the head with it?

at minimum, can i get an AMEN?!?!? :D


THIS is the #1 reason why you can't hear the difference between the mackie, presonus and bellari preamps, and why you can't appreciate the subtle yet large differences between preamps on the TLS examples.

it is *experience in what to listen for*. yes, the converters and room play a HUGE role......but none is a substitute for experience. far too often we throw money and gear at "problems".....instead, what we need to be throwing at it is time and effort spent learning.

it's a lot like learning compression.....one day, it'll just click and you'll hear it. or maybe it won't. not everyone's cut out to do this, ya know. :D


cheers,
wade

PS--my advice: do NOT waste your money on a Great River or something else at this point in time.....b/c you'll end up disappointed in your $1200 purchase.
 
Preamps make a difference...sure...but you want to build a great mic collection that will handle everything well FIRST. The differences are smaller than you think in many cases.

Also, a good EQ is often overlooked while people pile on the high end preamps.

War
 
Well, first of all, I don't buy the argument that there is no discernable difference between mic pres, until you get into the high dollar range. Even the very cheapest pres have a signature sound. Think of the infamous Mackie VLZs. They sound thin and brittle on the high end. Consistently. And this is not a subtle thing, either. (At least in my opinion.) Neither do I believe that the monitoring is insufficient. If you are using cans to monitor, well, there are certain problems with this approach in general, but good quality headphones certainly SHOULD be sufficient to hear the differences between different pres.

If you can't hear ANY difference between the three very different preamps that you have, my hunch is that there is one of three problems going on. Probability number one is that your ears simply have not been trained to hear the differences. The second most likely explanation is that the signals you are tracking are not the sort of sounds that would demonstrate the difference between the pres. I'm not sure that even the most "golden" of ears could hear the difference between a Mackie VLZ and a Grace 201 (and the tonal differences between these two pres are HUGE) if the signal that you were recording was a analog syth, playing a sine wave. There simply isn't enough complexity in the signal to show the differences. But try recording a human voice or a good quality acoustic guitar, and the differences will pop right out. The final (least likely) possibility is that the signal chain is breaking down somewhere, and is simply not able to resolve the differences. Converters, perhaps, or maybe cables? But one thing is for sure, you SHOULD be able to hear a difference between those preamps.

Brad
 
By the way, while I certainly DO hear a difference between different preamps, and I think anybody can with a little ear training, I also concur with War that there is MUCH too much emphasis placed on collecting different mic pres, at the expense of building a nice mic locker. At the amateur, home recording level (where most of us are on this board), where you're mostly just tracking demos of your own work, and the stuff is not for distribution to the mass market, you should be able to go a LOOOOOONG way with just a basic set of preamps, such as the ones that are included with your recorder (or interface). Personally, I have the Presonus Firepod, and I expect to be able to get by with just the preamps in that thing for a very long time, before I consider adding any outboard pres. Maybe after I've got 25 or 30 good microphones and am getting ready to dramatically upgrade my recording chain, will I consider buying a collection of two or three outboard mic pres. Probably not before then, though. Just my 2 cents.

Brad
 
Ty Ford mentioned something once that has stuck in my mind ever since: "If you can't hear a difference, it doesn't matter."
 
philboy said:
Hello evryone!

I'm lookking to upgrade my home studio. This is my present rig:

MICS:

Rode NT2
AKG C451B
Sennheiser MD441
SM57

-Quality Digiflex balanced cables

PRES:

Joemeek VC6Q
Presonus Eureka
Bellari Dual Tube pre RP220

OTHER:

Event 2020 BAS monitors
M-AUDIO DELTA 66 soundcard
Lexicon MPX550 multi-fx
Mackie VLZ pro mixer

I'm mostly recording my own material (vox, accoustic guitar, electric guitar/bass (direct) and some acoustic projects as well.

My first pre was the Bellari RP220 dual tube. Sounded much much better than the Mackie mixer. A few months later, after hours of reading, I wanted a more "colorful" pre and after reading many boards like this one I went for a Joemeek VC6Q. When I got it I was in a hurry to try it and finally hear that “joemeek” signature sound. Well, it sounded good...but… Better than the Bellari??? No. Different from the Bellari??? No !!!
Of course with the compressor and EQ in, that’s a different story, but I’m talking about preamps only… Then recently I thought I’d upgrade a step further and went for a Presonus Eureka solid state Class A pre. Many serious reviews praised this channel strip, and some mentioned items recorded through this channel sounded “stunning”. I went for this and guess what? Although the Eureka is bit quieter and have more gain, it still sounds exactly the same as the joemeek AND the Bellari (which are 3 different designs). I made a lot of A/B comparaison with the three of them and very honestly i can’t tell the difference!!! And I have good ears. I asked a few family members and musician-friends to listen very carefully to my recordings and no one could detect any subtility between recordings.

I tracked various instruments, and also many sources from my Motif 8 keyboard (different drum kits, brasses, percs, woodwinds, pianos, etc… name it!!!) through all of those pres and i can't tell the difference. I’m often reading “warm up your digital tracks with this or that preamp…” well i can’t tell the difference recording my motif 8 direct than through any of those pres…

I went to “thelisteningsessions.com”. While the difference between different large condenser mics is very evident, I’m not sure I can tell the difference between pres, and we’re talking about solo instruments. If the differences are so subtle in a solo/dry (no fx)/well trated room envorinement, correct me if i’m wrong then I guess this won’t make any difference in a whole busy mix…

So here are my questions:

Could it be my soundcard? Maybe it’s not converting well enough to hear the very subtle sonic differences between pres??? How would you compare a Delta66 with, say, a MOTU or Layla soundcard??? Would upgrading the sound card make a difference???

I’m hearing good things about Avalon, Great River and other hi-end pres… But would such a preamp honestly make a big difference? Most of all starting from what I have, especially the Delta66 soundcard???

Any input, comment or expericnces welcome!!! I just want to discuss and have your point of view!!!

Best regards

Phil
Click to expand...

It's quite conceivable that you might not be able to hear the differences that someone with a trained ear, would. The harsh reality is that not everyone is destined to be a recording engineer. It takes years of experience to develop the fine tuning that comes with the recording territory. Even moreso, for mastering engineers.

Perhaps, you should enjoy the pres that you do have, instead of throwing more money on higher end stuff. Just a suggestion.

Regards.
 
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