"the true secret to great amp tone"

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Mike_J

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Has anyone ever read this article from the amptone site?

http://www.amptone.com/truesecretofamptone.htm

If so, any opinions on it?

I just wondered if anyone had gone down this road using eq and attenuators to get their sound.

Any opinions on attenuators? I have not used one but am thinking seriously about getting one for my Marshall 50 watt head and cab.

Cheers,
Mike.
 
Has anyone ever read this article from the amptone site?

http://www.amptone.com/truesecretofamptone.htm

If so, any opinions on it?

I just wondered if anyone had gone down this road using eq and attenuators to get their sound.

Any opinions on attenuators? I have not used one but am thinking seriously about getting one for my Marshall 50 watt head and cab.

Cheers,
Mike.


I'd never seen that article until just now--but it was a refreshing read. Yep, I agree with it. I use attenuators on both of my amps. On one of em (mostly clean) I also EQ on the way in. On the bigger, high gain amp I EQ on the way in and in the FX loop.

I wish I'd have read this years ago (though I probably wouldn't have believed it!) but through years of trial and error, I can tell you that my own tone pursuit has lead me to the same conclusions in that article.
 
Whoa. I don't know about all this. I'm going to wake up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night.
 
Whoa. I don't know about all this. I'm going to wake up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night.

Get a Weber Mass Attenuator and an MXR 10-band EQ pedal. Then when you wake up in a cold sweat, you'll realize it was just a nightmare, and that you really can dial in a great tone now! :D
 
I don't agree with the need for any pedals at all. Attenuator if you must, but I'd DIY for $30. Guitar-->tubes-->transformer-->speaker. You can make very large changes in the overtone content of your signal with just your fingers.

Bottom line is guitarists are doomed to never be happy anyway, because they are all psychotic :p

Sometimes I wonder why the transformer is necessary. It's because the speaker is low impedance. Why is the speaker low impedance? I mean, either way, you're going to need more wire. But I don't design speakers, so I don't know the answer to that one. Harvey probably does . . .

edit: OK, never mind, I just checked the primary impedance of an output transformer, I was thinking they were in the hundreds but I guess not :o
 
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I don't agree with the need for any pedals at all. Attenuator if you must, but I'd DIY for $30. Guitar-->tubes-->transformer-->speaker. You can make very large changes in the overtone content of your signal with just your fingers.

Bottom line is guitarists are doomed to never be happy anyway, because they are all psychotic :p

Sometimes I wonder why the transformer is necessary. It's because the speaker is low impedance. Why is the speaker low impedance? I mean, either way, you're going to need more wire. But I don't design speakers, so I don't know the answer to that one. Harvey probably does . . .

I used to agree with you on the pedals--but the 10 band eq gives me such control (esp. with high gain sounds)--I use the lo, mid & high on the amp to obviously get as close as I can, but then use the EQ pedal to notch it out further.

For me, it's been the difference between "Hey, that's pretty close to the tone I hear in my head" and "Damn, that's just what I'm hearing in my head!"

(when i'm not hearing the voices, that is...)
 
I used to agree with you on the pedals--but the 10 band eq gives me such control (esp. with high gain sounds)--I use the lo, mid & high on the amp to obviously get as close as I can, but then use the EQ pedal to notch it out further.

Well, it's like this: everybody says that a hybrid mic preamp design is bad, but a solid-state stage into a tube amp is good? Does not compute in my book

But then, I don't mind hybrid mic preamps, so . . .

Anyway, I am pretty used to the pure tone of the guitar, just into a good passive DI and then a mic amp, and that's it. Sure, I'll screw with it after the fact, but I have never seen anything that indicates to me that multiple graphic EQ stages are necessary or helpful. I mean, the quality of the parts used in a pedal EQ are going to be crap, and it takes quite a few opamps to do a graphic EQ. Why would I want two stages of multiple crap opamps with a crap opamp distortion box in between feeding a tube amp? Sorry, I don't get it.

I mean that essay was nice and all, but it sorely lacked evidence in the form of actual audio samples, done in an environment where the settings on the EQ-less chain are sympathetic . . .
 
Get a Weber Mass Attenuator and an MXR 10-band EQ pedal. Then when you wake up in a cold sweat, you'll realize it was just a nightmare, and that you really can dial in a great tone now! :D

I'll think about it. Basically, this is at odds with my "EQ is just another form of distortion" axiom.

I'm going to church tomorrow to ask the lord for guidance.
 
Well, it's like this: everybody says that a hybrid mic preamp design is bad, but a solid-state stage into a tube amp is good? Does not compute in my book

But then, I don't mind hybrid mic preamps, so . . .

Anyway, I am pretty used to the pure tone of the guitar, just into a good passive DI and then a mic amp, and that's it. Sure, I'll screw with it after the fact, but I have never seen anything that indicates to me that multiple graphic EQ stages are necessary or helpful. I mean, the quality of the parts used in a pedal EQ are going to be crap, and it takes quite a few opamps to do a graphic EQ. Why would I want two stages of multiple crap opamps with a crap opamp distortion box in between feeding a tube amp? Sorry, I don't get it.

I mean that essay was nice and all, but it sorely lacked evidence in the form of actual audio samples, done in an environment where the settings on the EQ-less chain are sympathetic . . .


I understand (and appreciate) your scientific approach to the matter. Given the science of it all--you don't get it. Fair enough.

But my ears get it.

I'm sure there's an amp out there that delivers my dream tone with nothing but a wire in between. But until I find that amp, I'll accept the unscientific compromise that makes me smile a little bigger when I play. :D
 
I'll think about it. Basically, this is at odds with my "EQ is just another form of distortion" axiom.

I'd probably agree with that. Which is why I find myself using the EQ pedal almost exclusively on the high gain channels. It's most valuable in shaping both crunch sounds and saturated lead sounds...

I don't need it so much on cleaner things.
 
I understand (and appreciate) your scientific approach to the matter. Given the science of it all--you don't get it. Fair enough.

You don't get that good tone comes from underwound humbuckers, or spraying WD-40 on your strings, do you? I will assert that and require you try it, and if you don't, I refuse to acknowledge any comments you make regarding those techniques, because they work great for me!






See how well that works? Not very. For the record, I like #1, but it's not for everybody. #2 I would NOT try. I've never tried it, but I know that WD-40 is fairly nasty stuff, so I don't think I want it on my guitars or my fingers.
 
You don't get that good tone comes from underwound humbuckers, or spraying WD-40 on your strings, do you? I will assert that and require you try it, and if you don't, I refuse to acknowledge any comments you make regarding those techniques, because they work great for me!

See how well that works? Not very. For the record, I like #1, but it's not for everybody. #2 I would NOT try. I've never tried it, but I know that WD-40 is fairly nasty stuff, so I don't think I want it on my guitars or my fingers.

No, no, no...I wasn't saying "you don't get it" as in "you don't understand so you're not allowed to comment on it." I was actually quoting you--you said "I don't get it" and I took that to mean not that you don't understand, but rather that you don't see the value in it. And that's a perfectly valid opinion.

So in response, I was simply saying that as much as you're right for the reasons you hold your opinion--I like what it does for my tone--thus the bigger smile on my face when I play.

EDIT: FWIW--you're one of the last folks on this board I'd accuse of "not getting it." It was an unfortunate quote of a phrase used another way...
 
OK, let's have some more science. Undoubtably, you can shape tone with an EQ. If you have tried every knob on your guitar and your amp, and you don't like that, it's worth a shot.

So let's talk about what is happening with distortion. There is a good page on muzique.net I think it is that talks about hard vs. soft clipping, and symmetrical vs. asymmetrical clipping. There are a lot of different tones just from those techniques.

The types of distortion will be expressed as a unique harmonic distortion signature; even- vs. odd-order, higher order and lower order.

The fundamental range of a guitar is 80Hz to a little over 1kHz. A guitar generates a fair amount of harmonics naturally; this is dependent upon the type of pickups as well as your style of plucking. Tone controls are generally designed to act as a high-shelf cut in the harmonic overtone range, acting as a 6dB/octave low-pass at their max setting. So you have some degree of control over the content of the overtone series right on the guitar and your fingers.

Let's assume a simplified model where there is no harmonic distortion in any part of the chain, other than the distortion circuit (whatever that may be). So we insert a graphic EQ in the chain. There are three possibilities for the EQ bands: they are below 80Hz (sort of a rumble filter, I guess, that may help but could also be easily and cheaply added on the guitar itself); within the range of the guitar's fundamentals (along with the overtones of the low fundamentals); or solely within the range of the overtone series.

It's pretty well known that if you take the guitar in its "brightest" setting--the bridge pickup, picking hard right at the bridge, you will generate lots of overtones.

That overtone-rich signal now heads to the distortion circuit. If you have a distortion that generates lots of higher-order overtones, that approach could sound quite painful. You are also going to get a lot of intermodulation distortion, which is why you aren't likely to select that combination for chords.

OK, so with your graphic EQ, you can cut some of those overtone ranges--probably the painful ones--before they hit the distortion circuit and generate yet more overtones. I fully acknowledge that's a good idea; I just question the absolute need when there are so many other points available to accomplish the same goal.

If you are cutting the fundamental ranges, then you could get unusual results, which may be what you're looking for, but I would consider more of a special-effects tone.

Finally, a guitar woofer will roll off above about 8kHz, and the mics typically used on guitar will give away a bit more above 12kHz. That is not to say that changing the EQ of those ranges will have no effect on the final output, again due to intermodulation products.

I understand why you might want to use any or all of those techniques, but if any of them become mandatory, then I would consider the electric guitar to be essentially a broken instrument. I mean, I don't see violinists or oboists saying they need graphic EQ . . . slap a good flat-response mic on a good instrument and a good player in a good room, and you're done.

I experience the same thing with a DI into a mic amp--no EQ of any sort required. Now, would I feed that direct into a distortion circuit? Sometimes; most of the time actually. EQ after distortion usually works fine for me, I don't use lots unless I want an unusual tone (I like unusual tones, but I never use them twice). I almost never use a heavy amount of hard clipping as a normal guitar tone though--I want a signal that breaks up a little at the top, a bit of second-order to warm things up below. That kind of tone is really not hard to get. A good metal tone, I dunno. Another problem with the article; it was kinda one-size-fits-all.

I fully understand what you want and how you get it, which is great. I just didn't get that from the article. Seriously, the first thing it recommends is a chain of three pedals. I'll pretty much never agree with that unless we are talking The Edge or something, that's just my bad experience from the '80s though (I like The Edge :confused:)

Funny thing is, before I ever did mics I was looking at doing guitar pedals instead. Of course, there are a zillion boutique pedal makers, most of them with much better artwork than I could ever be bothered with, so I don't think I would have been very successful . . . :o

Now, a tailored EQ pedal with the ranges/Qs in question specially selected, with high-quality components; that sounds very interesting. For somebody else to do ;) Somebody probably has. That to me would have much more appeal--like a mini-Pultec for a guitar in a stompbox (when I use EQ before emulation, it's usually the UAD Pultec). Now we're talking :cool:
 
I came across that article when I was researching before I bought my HotPlate. It must have come up since it uses the term "THD HotPlate" a few times and Google caught it.

I dunno, I think that the author is a little too evangelical for my tastes. While I'm intrigued by the introduction of EQ at multiple points during the signal chain, I have to wonder when its too much of a good thing. Plus he keeps repeating himself and his theory, but not providing any sort of example.

I like the idea of putting an EQ before an overdrive or before any drive/distortion stage. I saw the potential when I started fooling around with the clean channel of my tube amp, which has a master volume on it. I'd crank up the input gain and the master volume so that I'd be getting breakup purely from the power tubes and not the preamp tubes. Then I started messing with the bass/mid/treble settings and taking note of the difference in distortions when different frequencies were fed into the power section. I found that you can get a terrific vintage-style breakup when pushing the bass and mids but not the treble frequencies hard.

So I'd be interested to see how this translates into using an EQ pedal to push different frequencies into an overdrive pedal and see what all different kinds of distortion I can get. Then use another EQ after the overdrive pedal to restore any frequencies that didn't sound good when overdriven, but DO sound good in the overall guitar tone.

But my YCV80 already has so many gain stages that it can be like a freaking combination lock when it comes to finding the right distortion. I can't imagine the complexities of adding 2 more EQ stages to my existing one. My head might start leaking stoopid juice or something.
 
Any opinions on attenuators?

Yeah.....

Don't!

Of course, you wont know until you use one for a few months, then one day you forget to use it and you realize what you've been missing in your tone.

If you are like me, you will have this same experience, and you will immediately put your attenuators up on ebay and never touch them again.....
 
've never tried it, but I know that WD-40 is fairly nasty stuff, so I don't think I want it on my guitars or my fingers.

works wonders on noisy door hinges...if only it did the same for noisy tube amps :D
 
I was thinking about the essay at practice tonight. And although I briefly considered pissing everyone off by taking time out to hook an EQ in my effects loop (and did not, which I WILL do at some point, just to experiment), I must say I found a glaring hole in the theory.

An attenuator is going to give you power tube saturation at lower volume. But then I was thinking of the great Slipperman and his magnum opus Recording Distorted Guitars from Hell, and it suddenly occurred to me that something is missing.

Cabinet involvement. Or I should say: Total Cabinet Involvement. When the entire cabinet is resonating and vibrating musically. I can't sit on my amp at practice because it makes me giggle. It moves too much.

I would venture to say that that resonance and lossiness is an important part of the sound.
 
I was thinking about the essay at practice tonight. And although I briefly considered pissing everyone off by taking time out to hook an EQ in my effects loop (and did not, which I WILL do at some point, just to experiment), I must say I found a glaring hole in the theory.

An attenuator is going to give you power tube saturation at lower volume. But then I was thinking of the great Slipperman and his magnum opus Recording Distorted Guitars from Hell, and it suddenly occurred to me that something is missing.

Cabinet involvement. Or I should say: Total Cabinet Involvement. When the entire cabinet is resonating and vibrating musically. I can't sit on my amp at practice because it makes me giggle. It moves too much.

I would venture to say that that resonance and lossiness is an important part of the sound.

Indeed it is an important part of the sound. And no attenuator claims to achieve it. But playing at low volumes (as in a home recording environment, like I do) misses two elements: power tube distortion/saturation AND cabinet involvement/speaker breakup. At least the attenuator gives me one of those back. I wish it were both, but I'll take the power tubes.

Believe me, there's a sweet spot on my 100 watt 2x12 that I can't begin to touch without an attenuator--so I'll take it. :D

FWIW--I don't know how the EQ would work in the FX loop. I've honestly never tried it there. I treat it as a "super tone control" for my guitar, and put it up front on the way in. Might be worth trying in the loop though...
 
Here's the real secret: take your main player guitar around to the stores and plug it into each amp you find there and when one sings to you, buy that amp.

It doesn't matter whether it's got tubes or solid state electronics, green fuzzy covering or walrus hide. The brand of the speakers doesn't matter, nor does the name on the box.

That process is guaranteed to get you a great sounding amp.

Pedals? Those are for tinkerers, not musicians.
 
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