The Mystery Behind Volume...

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AlecBeretz

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Okay: i need some audio/acoustical/engineering lessons. :confused:
What happens between mastering, and putting a finished song onto itunes or a cd, that changes volume?
I know about limiters, and compressors, etc. But why does the volume drop usually happen? do applications such as itunes have built in volume controls that will neuter anything thats not mixed to perfection? or, does the software do it upon export? because, in my mind, if i just send my songs volume and gain through the roof, it will come out that way on the other side.

i understand this is NOT what you should do, and there are proper steps to ensure a higher volume mix. I just wanna know about the processes that go unseen on the computer. Thanks for any/all info!
 
Volume doesn't "drop"....it's just that everyone these days tries to unnaturally max out their levels when making CDs...so if you just follow proper gain staging and mixing levels, your CD will sound like it's too low...but in reality many of the others are too high in level, with heavy compression/limiting that allows the "meat" of the music to get pushed up to the max, but at the expense of the dynamics (peaks & valleys).
 
There is no volume drop when you burn your CD or upload to iTunes. The player or device you are using is limiting the volume. Your mixing / mastering chain is probably capable of higher volumes and better quality (like 32 Bit vs 16 Bit). But if you download the actual file from CD or iTunes and open it in your music software editor you will see the volume is still maxed out.
 
Also check your itunes preferences to make sure that sound enhancer, eq or any other extraneous bs is not engaged.
 
miroslav said:
Volume doesn't "drop"....it's just that everyone these days tries to unnaturally max out their levels when making CDs...so if you just follow proper gain staging and mixing levels, your CD will sound like it's too low...but in reality many of the others are too high in level, with heavy compression/limiting that allows the "meat" of the music to get pushed up to the max, but at the expense of the dynamics (peaks & valleys).
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this means that its even more important to solve my problem if im going to make my album competitive to the market, and accessible to radio stations.
also, whenever im listening to itunes and the "quiet" album comes on (most people have one or two) i get annoyed. Also, i've heard mixes that are very loud and still have dynamics---like there are low peaks but still some valleys. i suppose that means they manipulate the limiters more than the compressors in that case.
 
AlecBeretz said:
this means that its even more important to solve my problem if im going to make my album competitive to the market, and accessible to radio stations.
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I think it's unfortunate, but you do need to compete. Actually, you don't have to worry about radio because they generally have their own loudness processing that evens out the differences.

AlecBeretz said:
also, whenever im listening to itunes and the "quiet" album comes on (most people have one or two) i get annoyed. Also, i've heard mixes that are very loud and still have dynamics---like there are low peaks but still some valleys. i suppose that means they manipulate the limiters more than the compressors in that case.
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You should be getting annoyed at all the loud ones. Just because they are in the majority doesn't make them right. You have been trained by years of hearing overly compressed mixes to think they sound good.
 
You can get a mix pretty loud (without simply resorting to massive compression/limiting) by manually lowering individual peaks, which can get you a lot of extra dBs without really messing up the dynamics.

It takes some work, and you need to be "tweaking" at the start, on individual tracks, right up to the final mix. It's about making a lot of small adjustments that will end up to a big gain in the end, but it's tedious work, and most people just opt for the broad stroke, and slap on that comp/limiter...set it to "nuke"....and there's your maxed out volume.

Also bear in mind that the pros know what they are doing and they have precise mastering-grade equipment that is designed to milk the crap out of the audio without butchering it.
I know these days every basic DAW comes with all kinds of "maximizer" plugs...but that ain't what the pros are using.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
You should be getting annoyed at all the loud ones. Just because they are in the majority doesn't make them right. You have been trained by years of hearing overly compressed mixes to think they sound good.
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i come here for help and suggestions. if im asking for assistance with volume, dont tell me to give up because everything i know about recorded music is wrong. when i ask for help with volume, thats what i want. so stop trying to argue.

and to an extent, compressed mixes do sound good so you dont have to turn up/down the volume during the song. i want to leave the song on and not deal with it. sacrifice dynamics for convenience i guess.

also some of my songs really aren't very dynamic. they're loud the whole way though. i want them to be powerful. other ones do get quieter, but not ridiculously so. i think the human ear is capable of recognizing a "quieter" part of a song even if it is compressed. there's just lower energy. "the end" by the doors is a perfect example. huge dynamic range, yet little volume change...

thats good to know about radio stations though. i've heard that they compress and equalize again. competition with other stations i guess to get the "better sound"
 
What BSG is telling you is not an "argument"...it's just the reality, like it or not.

If you just want LOUD, it's actually pretty easy to accomplish...and then just let you ears be the judge when the trade off of LOUD for dynamics & EQ/balance is acceptable to you.
 
AlecBeretz said:
i come here for help and suggestions. if im asking for assistance with volume, dont tell me to give up because everything i know about recorded music is wrong. when i ask for help with volume, thats what i want. so stop trying to argue.
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I would point out that I did recognize the need to compete, right there in my first sentence. I wasn't preaching, just giving you a different perspective that may help a lot in the long run.

Also, there are about a million threads on this subject to which I and many others did give fairly specific help. Dig around for titles like "My mixes are too quiet" or "How do I make my mixes as loud as Nickelback" etc. Here's one from today: https://homerecording.com/bbs/general-discussions/newbies/why-my-mixes-so-quiet-330368/
 
AlecBeretz said:
also some of my songs really aren't very dynamic. they're loud the whole way though.
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Amen. A lot of people don't get this. Not everything is some soft yacht rock shit from the 70's. Some songs naturally don't have a lot of dynamics, but the anti-loudness snobs will cry anyway. If you wanna be loud, be loud.
 
Greg_L said:
Some songs naturally don't have a lot of dynamics, but the anti-loudness snobs will cry anyway. If you wanna be loud, be loud.
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That's a valid point...there is music that just naturally comes at you like a freight train, it's meant to be loud.
Of course, it is just as easy to fuck up that stuff by over-compressing it, and then when/if it ever hits radio, or certain Internet music site algorithms...it gets re-compressed and turns into some wimpy noise.

I don't think anyone has an issue with "loud"...rather the manner in which you get to "loud".
 
The interesting thing about "volume", though, is that it depends on our perception based on what we're used to hearing. For example, I'm sure if you put a song like "Back in Black" or "Whole Lotta Rosey" by ACDC, or "How Many More Times" by Zeppelin into your DAW, I bet they don't even average '-16 (I'm guessing, I might be wrong). These days, those same songs would probably get "mastered" at -10.

I don't have a point, I'm just sayin......
 
I don't even care HOW anyone gets too loud ..... I do care when people ask questions but then want to get irritated if anyone expresses their thoughts on the very question they asked.
Don't fucking ask questions if you only want preapproved answers. IF someone had been snotty it would have been a different matter but they didn't ..... they just answered the question fully with their own opinions about it.
That's what an answer to a question is and not every answer is gonna surgically remark on only one single item. They're gonna be all over the place so you have to dig thru them and find the parts of it that you feel apply to your situation and discard the parts that don't.
And, if possible, without being a douche to someone who simply took their time to try and be helpful.

You did say "thanks for any and ALL info"
 
RAMI said:
The interesting thing about "volume", though, is that it depends on our perception based on what we're used to hearing. For example, I'm sure if you put a song like "Back in Black" or "Whole Lotta Rosey" by ACDC, or "How Many More Times" by Zeppelin into your DAW, I bet they don't even average '-16 (I'm guessing, I might be wrong). These days, those same songs would probably get "mastered" at -10.
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You're probably right.

Thing is...back in the day before the digital loudness wars...everyone still listened to all that stuff LOUD!
We simply turned up the volume on the stereo. :)

These days, some people want everything they have on the iPod...to be the same LOUD level. It bothers them if songs vary up/down in level, and it's too much trouble to turn up the volume per/song.

I'm surprised someone hasn't come out with some app that allows each person to pick a certain loudness, and the software will adjust each song for their preference, since apparently, a lot of people want to hear everything at one level...all the time.
 
miroslav said:
I'm surprised someone hasn't come out with some app that allows each person to pick a certain loudness, and the software will adjust each song for their preference, since apparently, a lot of people want to hear everything at one level...all the time.
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Get a patent on that right quick! Good idea. :D
 
The "mystery" is a great recording, not just the mastering. Sometimes you read how some 300dollar mic stands up to a 3000dollar Neumann, on a single track of digital it might, but when you slam it with a loudness program all the harsh shitty artifacts come to the surface, thus you cant make nearly as a loud and clean a master as professional engineers with expensive gear.

I like loud masters, (some are shitty), but most(Pro) sound great, especially on the listening devices alot of people use today, like boomboxes, computer speakers, home theaters.
 
Speaking of the iPod, I have an iPhone that I download alot of my music from the iTunes store to, I've noticed that if you download an old track that hasn't been mastered since the 80s/90s sometimes you have to have it on maximum volume to have it loud enough, sometimes I could do with turning it up more but can't because apple have calibrated the maximum volume based on current mastering trends. I'm not saying you'd have to slam your own track or anything, but do need to boost it a little if it's going to be listened to on an iPhone (imagine iPods are the same).
 
miroslav said:
These days, some people want everything they have on the iPod...to be the same LOUD level. It bothers them if songs vary up/down in level, and it's too much trouble to turn up the volume per/song.

.
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yeah .......... lol .......... that's such a burden.

I imagine they have someone come put food in their mouths and push their jaws up and down too since that would require some effort to do for themselves.


:laughings:
 
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