The Famous Point of Diminishing Returns

  • Thread starter Thread starter dobro
  • Start date Start date
dobro

dobro

Well-known member
Wide Awake, in another thread that I didn't want to disrupt, said:

"However, I'm not sure that in a home studio you are going to gain a lot using higher-end pre-amps, compressors, cables, equalizers. There is a point of deminishing returns."

...and it's seemed like that to me for some time as well. What I'm looking for now is where exactly that point exists. I'd like some idea, for example, how much better sound I'm going to get out of a dbx 386 or its joemeek equivalent than my ART Tube MPs for the extra money I pay for the dbx or the meek.

I'd like to propose the following scale for this board:

Get a Life: computer soundcards and Radio Shack mics. Sound so unacceptable that deaf people would notice it.

Got a Life: gear which, if used correctly, can produce mp3s you can post here or on mp3.com and get away with. Impresses family and friends. Shure SM-57, Monster 100 cable, ART Tube MP, n-Track, RNC. Cheap but good.

Life is Great: gear which sounds better than the above if used with the same technique. You pay a chunk more, but you get a significantly better sound or capability. Normal mortals have a hard time telling it from pro recordings when played on their home stereo. So do I. You're going to have to help me with specific examples, for the simple reason that I don't own anything in this category. We have reached The Famous Point of Diminishing Returns here.

Silly Life: stuff studios buy, and home recordists don't. I can live without Monster 1000 cable, ProTools and Neve preamps. They can come to me if they want.

What do you think? There's more, but I'll save it for later.
 
Ummm

Well, OK. I'm not sure I get the point here, but:

"...how much better sound I'm going to get out of a dbx 386 or its joemeek equivalent than my ART Tube MPs for the extra money I pay for the dbx or the meek."

What's listed above is rather roughly in the same category price-wise. Yeah there are hundreds of dollars of price difference in there between some of the stuff which may or may not result in slightly sigificant quality differences (but really too noticeable to your average listener on their home stereo), but nevertheless, they're all really nearly about in the same category when it comes to prices.

I know, I probably did miss the point. Oh well.
 
Let me clarify the point I was making. I think that gear has gotten cheaper and better at the low end of the market and you can make really nice recordings with a home studio on budget gear if the music sounds good at the source. You still NEED a certain quality of gear. If you are a professional then you're gear requirements are going to be way higher than someone recording with friends in their basement just for pleasure. I think microphones are an important place to spend real money because it's usually the first chain in the recording process. Voice lessons are a good place to spend money, great "recording" guitars, etc. I read a good article on putting together a home studio and he recommended buying just about the bare minimum of equipment and then upgrading one piece at a time after you've learned what you're needs truly are. Always trying to fix that weakest link in the recording process.

I have seen people with really nice studio gear but cheap, never-quite-in-tune guitars, "budget" keyboards and no soundproofing or regard for the acoustics. You can't capture good tone if the tone isn't good.
 
Dobro I totally agree with you. My gear is mid-level at best(I will be underging a major gear upgrade in 2 months) and though I have yet to post any MP3's,I have learned to make the MOST out of what I have.Every-1 here would love to own what the majors own but sometimes due to financial restraints we have to make do with what we have.
There is gear out there priced greater than others but achieve the same sound quality and performance as lower priced gear.
Supposed Clapton uses his talent with an Art Mp and Joe Blow uses his talent with a top of the line Meek.Will Joe Blow sound any better?
I can only guess that talent,experience and hard work can make most out of whatever gear 1 uses.
Just my .1/2 cents worth.
BTW dobro,Singapore is a very beautiful country! I caught an
episode on the Discovery Cable channel. Love the Orient Express train!
 
All I know is the sound quality improvment I got from upgrading to a Neumann TLM, Monster Pro, and my VC1Q was well worth the money. I recorded with the following setup to hear the difference and was blown away.
I stereo mic'ed an acoustic guitar and compared side by side.

Track 1
Neumann TLM 103
Monster Pro
VC1Q JoeMeek into Layla input 7 direct

Track 2
AT 4033
AudioTechnica cable
Alesis 24 board pre


To put it in a nutshell, Track 2 sounds like shit compared to track 1. Worth almost 2 G's? HELL YEAH ;-)
 
RE, you said: "What's listed above is rather roughly in the same category price-wise."

At 8th Street, the ART goes for $99 and the dbx for $439. Your idea of 'roughly in the same category price-wise' is obviously different from mine. The Meek VC6Q is even more expensive.

At some point, you're paying way more money for a not very great increase in sound quality - that's the point I'm making. If you're not an engineer, it makes very little sense getting top-range gear or anything that even approaches it.

Wide Awake - I agree with you entirely. But I'm trying to quantify things a bit, ascertain where the lines are, so to speak. I think my example above is a good one. Compare the price and the sound of an ART Tube MP and a Joe Meek VC6Q (is that the right model number?). How much better sound do I get for spending the extra bomb? Would my mother be able to hear the difference, even if she listened a dozen times? My mum's not deaf or stupid.

Mr2Q - you've supplied me with excellent material for an analogy. Yes, the Orient Express is wonderful, but I've never ridden on that particular train because it Costs a Fortune. It enters the Silly Life category. I have, however, ridden the ordindary train up Malaysia, because the scenery is nice and the ride is okay. In other words, I had a successful journey and enjoyed myself, and Paid Way Less. Just like gear, and the point I'm making.

Shakes - *now* we're getting down to it. But your example is a bit confusing, because I'm wondering if it was the Neumann, the Pro, the JoeMeek or the combination that produced the better sound. All three obviously, but was *one* of them the predominant factor. Tougher to be scientific when you deal with three variables at one time. Also, your example takes things off track. We all know that topline gear gets you a better sound. What I'm saying is this: for the sake of most of the people who frequent this board, putting together decent mp3s and demos, you don't need the Neumann, the Pro, and maybe not even the JoeMeek. From my point of view, your example has exceeded the Famous Point of Diminishing Returns. And by the way, when I put my four-level scale together, I was thinking of adding that microphones should probably not be included, since they obviously make such a big, big difference. I was thinking the same about instruments as well, to come back to something Wide Awake said. But preamps, compressors, EQ, reverb, cable, mixers, software?
 
Something else, too ('hurray' they shouted, 'that last post *was* a bit short, dobro') - when Shakes says Chain 1 gear 'sounds like shit' compared to expensive Chain 2 gear, I think that says more about Shakes (and what he wants) than the gear. I think there are a lot of people on this board who would *love* to get their hands on an AT 4033 (dobro's hand shoots up at this point) and the Alesis rig as well. So when I say certain gear is 'got a life gear' I mean it's cheap but good; I don't mean it would necessarily satisfy your or your ear. When I say certain gear is 'life is great gear' I mean it's more expensive, an engineer probably wouldn't touch it (dbx 386?), but it does produce a better sound that anybody on this board can hear.

And of course, the criterion is this: can you hear a difference? If not, then it's not worth the money, is it?

In other words, I'm looking for an objective measure of gear, not subjective valuations like 'sounds like shit compared to'. I'm not criticizing your valuation, Shakes, I think you've got high standards that's all, and that's why, subjectively, you're harsh on a mic like the 4033. But again, I'd like to get away from mics, and onto processors and such. That's why I posted this thread in this forum.
 
C7 - I'm saying that For What You're Trying To Achieve, you can easily pay too much money for gear considering the incremental and hearable increase in sound quality you get.

I don't think it has a connection with your sweetheart, but I can understand how your thinking processes might have got slightly addled by all that chest-biting. :) BTW, in tantric sex, you don't come, that's the whole point. Like Sting says, it's like going shopping but you don't buy anything. My point is you go shopping but you don't get fooled into paying more than you have to. But then I'm not talking about nook-nooks. If you're confused, that's what comes ! of mixing sex and home recording.
 
I'm all with dobro!

Except maybe that the "got a life" spans too much. I've been there the last 10 years. :)

I did good demos on 4-track, with recording equipment that today second hand will cost less then $500. If I can't get a record contract in a year, I'll upgrade my studio to the lower end of "life is great", and record my own albums, dammit! :D That will probably mean that the stuff used in recording (instruments not counted) will have a total cost of around $5000... unless I feel I need to upgrade my 8-track to a 16-track, then it will probably be even more expensive.

So I'd add another level:
Got a demo life: I can make a demo where you actually can hear that the songs are good, even if everything is mono, the drumsound sucks and the reverb drowns out the backing vocals. 4-track porta, microverb, dynamic mics and no compressor.

What would the different levels cost btw?

Get a life: $35. (n-track. Use the mic that came with the PC. ;) )
Got a demo life: $500
Got a life: $2000
Life is great: $5000
Silly life: $ijustneedthistoo. :) (I'd guess at least $10000?)

Tantric sex? No orgasms? There is nothing more wonderful in the universe than giving a woman a mind-blowing orgasm. I would REFUSE. :p
 
oh don't waorry C7sus I'd much rather have my hands on your nurse than Joe Meeks. good rave dobro :D
 
The "point" is where the returns curve hits the amount of money you're willing and able to spend on each unit or the whole setup. Y= quality of results you get X= price of gear, or monies you spend. Economics 101 8)
 
Just to clarifiy something. I love my AT4033! Didnt mean to sound like I was knocking it. Its a great Mic that is of great importance to my studio overall. Well I just wanted to clear that up. ;-)


Shakes,


Have you hugged your JoeMeek today
 
It isn't all about the gear

A good song will carry itself on minimal gear. A shitty tune will sound shitty, even if recorded in the best studio in town.
Yes dobro-
I can see some of your point on the diminishing return, but it is all up to ourselves as artists, and individuals, as to where the actual point of return is augmented or diminshed.
I agree with Wide Awake as far as building up the studio -start with a foundation and build on it. This is what I have done. And though I am nowhere near to where I wanna be, I am farther along down the road then I was, say 2 years ago - relying upon such things as instinct, and experience. I have also made studio upgrades, at my own pace, and have been somewhat contended with my overall results.
When I first got the 386, I couldn't wait to get it home and plug it in. I was dissappointed when I didn't sound instantly like Freddie Mercury and I thought - man, I just blew 4 bills. Overtime, I worked with it and have come to really appreciate it. I am sure the same holds true for many of us here at the BBS.
 
Look, everybody in this thread has thought about this and is serious about it. I'm grateful to you all for tracking this thread this far. And I'd drink and laugh and laugh and laugh with Gear Junky and basketball jones and agree that in the end, yes, it's all subjective when it comes to deciding what to spend your money on. But don't you see? I'm establishing Categories here. I can see four: gear you wouldn't touch (it's a very small category, and easily avoided). Gear you wouldn't shell out for (it's very expensive, and just as easily avoided unless you're an anxious engineer :)). Gear you can easily afford and impress friends and family with (more than half of us on this board). Gear which Produces a Better Sound than Got a Life Gear and which pops the socks off listeners in this board's mp3 forum (I'd love to know which gear this is, actually).

Can you help me decide which gear goes into which category?

(Regebro: yes)

(John: thank you)
 
The weakest part of my bedroom studio is the acoustics. A big window behind my monitors, mirrored door on one side, reflective walls. Until I make the neccessary adjustments to the room my mixes will probably still be mediocre no matter what gear I have.

It's funny that Shakes mentioned the Audio Technica 4033sm. I bought that mic because of two positive magazine reviews and feel that it's a good example of a product that doesn't cost a lot, about $340, yet get's you good result's. To pay any less I feel I would have sacrificed on quality, no offense to the Rode users. I'm always skeptical if something is priced too low, especially with musical equipment. Someday I will pay big bucks for a really nice EQ, compressor, and reverb. Not because I need them but because they look so cool in a big-ass rack.
 
Well, things might be shaping up this way: a Rode NT 1, 2 or 3 is in the same category with an AT 4033. The Rode's priced low, but I figure it ranks in Life is Great gear because of the following phenomenon: here in Singapore, you buy wine in supermarkets - that's where you buy wine. When a new wine gets introduced here, what they'll do is this - they'll price it low so that loads of people will reach for it on the basis of price (oh yeah, they know it's an ace wine, but they also know there are loads of other wines competing for public attention). People will find out it's good wine after they buy it cuz it's cheap. Then after about 12-16 months, the supermarkets raise the price about 10-15%, maybe more if the market supports it another coupla years. At which point I get pissed off, but that's not the point. This is an illustration.

Rodes are not Got a Life gear. They're secretly Life is Great gear. They rub weenies with mics that cost hundreds more, including the 4033. I say take yer Radio Shack and place it up yer btm. I've got an NT-1! But I'd still like to get away from mics, which span all sorts of categories, and stick to boxes and electronics.
 
The problem with putting gear in catagories is that sometimes one piece will do a couple of things really well and others crap. For instance a certain compressor might be incredible for snare drum but doesn't work well on vocals. One of the best compressors for guitar might be the Boss CS3 Compressor Sustainer pedal. It just seems to "work" for electric guitar just by stepping on it. It's $70 and worth every penny because it does that one thing well without having to figure thresholds and ratios....you just turn the knobs.

It's easier to define The Point of Not Screwing Around rather than Deminishing Returns. For a voice channel that might be an ART ProChannel or Joe Meek VC1Q. For a preamp it might be a PreSonus MP20 or dbx 1086. CD Recorder-HHB 850 or Tascam CD-RW5000. Reverb-Yamaha ProR3 Digital Reverb. I don't own any of these but I do believe in Santa Claus.

[Edited by Wide Awake on 09-15-2000 at 13:41]
 
Yeah, and the best compressor for my voice may not be the best for your voice.
One must look at their strengths and weaknesses, and evaluate from there. I believe one of the common complaints of my stuff is the lack of a live drummer.
But there ain't no gear in the world I could buy to help me there.
As for the 4 basic gear groups I think it is a neat idea. Been through the "Get a Life" phase and am currently some where between "Got a Life" and "Life is Great".
 
200mph

This is what i think, gear is very much like car racing. You spend $100,000 to go 200mph, then you spend $100,000 more to go 205mph. Thats why people are sick when they get that new unit hooked up, and they don't sound %100 better than before. If your rich, you just buy the best, it sure doesn't hurt. But most guys doing home recording can't spend that much money. Equipment in group 4 would not be 4times better than group 1, but it will cost maybe 4 times as much. Group 1 would not keep a good band down !
Thats it !
 
It all sounds to me that the underlying factors is.......
TALENT,EXPERIENCE,PATIENCE AND GREAT EARS!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top