The dark side

[garf]

I have been recording harp (the one with strings) using the standard acoustic methods with expensive mics, expensive preamps, etc. But just recently I ran across a harp maker that will install a pickup on each string, and then a custom midi board. This has some obvious advantages and eliminates alot of equipment.

But heres my confusion, in doing this I no longer have the effects of the soundboard correct? Is there a way to add this back in? Any recommended reading material?

My one other question is if there are any standalone Midi recorders that are as convenient to use as the Tascam CD recorder that I currently use. I don't mind doing the finished product on the computer, but its really nice to have something as simple as a CD recorder when doing the songs by yourself.

 

[AlChuck]

A pickup for each string, and a MIDI board? So the harp becomes a MIDI controller?

The pickups would probably also have a line output too, so you could now record direct, but it would not sound the same as micing the harp does. But it's still audio so you can certainly do all the same treatments you currently do. You can also blend the sound of the mic with the sound of the direct out.

If you use it as a MIDI controller, you still hae to record the output of whatever synth you use it to drive to audio so you can mix it down. So again, any treatment you apply to any audio signal can be used.

It almost sounds like you're thinking of using the output of a MIDI harp sound on a synth to replace your harp's real sound. It will simply not sound as realistic, all of the nuances of your playing will be lost.

 

[garf]

Thanks Al, I thought I would post here how this harp maker explains it, and you can tell me if this makes sense, so here goes:

The way this works is that each pickup is routed individually via a tiny coax cable to the circuit board. At this point, the signal is analog, the same as an electric harp. The microprocessor on the circuit board senses the rise in current from any string that is plucked, and sends the digital MIDI message out- the "note-on" message with velocity value. The system does not involve pitch recognition the way guitars do, so there is no delay, and this is also why the output from each string must be kept isolated from the others. This is one thing that happens.

Seperately from this, the analog current from each pickup is summed on the circuit board (blended together with the other strings), and slightly amplified. This signal is output as an analog current, just like any electric harp.

To blend these sounds, in performance, is a simple matter of running the analog output of the harp to one channel of your amp or mixer, and run the (analog) output from your synthesizer to another channel of your amp or mixer.

Now, to record directly, digitally, you would need an A/D converter at some place in this chain. If you are going into your computer, this is probably all taken care of by the software you are running, once again, not a problem.

Note that I am discussing a dual function harp, not the simple midi controller. Adding my midi unit onto your harp would result in not only a dual function, but a three function harp- it would be a midi harp, an electric harp, and still an acoustic harp.

--But of course, I am really after better recordings and am exploring this as one way of getting there.

 

[ssscientist]

It will simply not sound as realistic, all of the nuances of your playing will be lost.

Not necessarily. The further description includes this tantilizing paragraph:

The way this works is that each pickup is routed individually via a tiny coax cable to the circuit board. At this point, the signal is analog, the same as an electric harp. The microprocessor on the circuit board senses the rise in current from any string that is plucked, and sends the digital MIDI message out- the "note-on" message with velocity value. The system does not involve pitch recognition the way guitars do, so there is no delay

To me that means that anyone who can really play the harp could, with this modification, play Absynth sounds or Z3ta+ sounds or hardware synth or sampler sounds not only with full expression and nuance but without the limitations of a guitar or keyboard controller. It would mean new chord structures with existing sounds.

It is true that some sounds would work better than others --- a strong pluck without a ton of release would be the basic perscription --- but that could just be a starting point. You could have one note set up to trigger an arpeggio that is in time with the music, another octave or two set to modify that arpeggio either in pitch or timing or both, a strong bass sound on the lowest strings and a heavily echoed sound - again with the echoes in time with the piece - in the middle. And that's just one example.

Wow.

If I knew how to play the harp and could afford this modification I would find it almost irresistable...

 

[AlChuck]

To me that means that anyone who can really play the harp could, with this modification, play Absynth sounds or Z3ta+ sounds or hardware synth or sampler sounds not only with full expression and nuance but without the limitations of a guitar or keyboard controller. It would mean new chord structures with existing sounds.

Whoa, sscientist, what are you smoking? The description tells me that the pickups send specific MIDI messages -- since they do not detect the pitch directly, they must be preset to send a Note On of the correct tuned pitch of the given note on the harp. This is just like a keyboard controller.

I don't know how many strings a harp has but a good keyboard controller has as many as 88 keys. What new chord structures are you going to get out of a harp that you can't out of a 88-key controller?

 

[ssscientist]

Whoa, sscientist, what are you smoking?

LOL!

I don't know how many strings a harp has either, but since you play strings that are much closer together than the keys of any keyboard controller any player with even the smallest hands should be able to stretch two or even three octaves per hand. That was the rationale behind my 'new chord structures' salvo.

And what are YOU smoking that's made you lose your imagination? I can easily imagine a single performer whipping up a delictable musical creme brulee with a single harp and the aid of some creative midi programming. Do you really want to discourage garf from even pursuing that?

 

[Atterion]

ssscientist is right about new chords (well sorta). Certain things are easier to play on a Harp, especially arpeggio type materials over a large scale.

As far as garfs concern over the soundboard goes, you'll loose that effect, unless you are recording with a mic still (to blend in), or that fellow could install some sort of cool aftertouch sensor or something in the sound board (Think Roland D-Beam style with a ribbon style pressure sensor too, That would pretty much kick ass, huh??? )

And for portable MIDI recorders, you might this check out (Not sure if it can run on batteries)

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=key/search/detail/base_pid/701491/

 

[garf]

Atterion,
Thanks for the link to the Yamaha, I would have never have guessed that this would be used as a recorder.

And excuse my ignorance, but what is an Absynth sound or Z3ta sound?

 

[AlChuck]

what is an Absynth sound or Z3ta sound?

Absynth and Z3ta are softsynths. Softsynths are synths that are realized as software that runs on a computer (as compared to the more traditional synths that are programmed onto hardware chips or otherwise realized).

I don't know how many strings a harp has either, but since you play strings that are much closer together than the keys of any keyboard controller any player with even the smallest hands should be able to stretch two or even three octaves per hand. That was the rational behind my 'new chord structures' salvo.

Yeah, I didn't think of that. Duh.
(You mean rationale there, I think...)

And what are YOU smoking that's made you lose your imagination? I can easily imagine a single performer whipping up a delictable musical creme brulee with a single harp and the aid of some creative midi programming. Do you really want to discourage garf from even pursuing that?

Must be smoking crack, I reckon... I overreacted to your talking about playing "Absynth sounds or Z3ta+ sounds or hardware synth or sampler sounds not only with full expression and nuance but without the limitations of a guitar or keyboard controller..." It sounds like the described pickups would only give a Note On and Note Off message, so not much expression or nuance there other than velocity, which is no more than a keyboard controller provides. I really meant no discouragement, I was just trying to be realistic.

 

[ssscientist]

(You mean rationale there, I think...)

Okay, okay. 'Rationale' it is.

 

[noisewreck]

Now, my question is: what would it sound like when put through a Leslie?

 

[garf]

AlChuck, thanks for the explanation of 'synthSounds'. I found an interesting link for orchestra midi libraries that Garritan provides. Almost makes me want to build my own simple midi harp with no soundboard etc, etc, just to play with. Or get the midi library for the electric piano we have & see how impressed we are with the harp sounds.

One other question, assuming the signal is basically on/off & velocity (don't see how you could have anything else) does this give 'nuance' as well? My fear is that there are parts of the playing that simply will not come across.

 

[garf]

One other thing I forgot, harp tends to have a long period of die off in the notes, as there no damping of the strings other than what the player chooses to do by physically touching the strings. I am not sure how this affects things.

 

[noisewreck]

One other question, assuming the signal is basically on/off & velocity (don't see how you could have anything else) does this give 'nuance' as well? My fear is that there are parts of the playing that simply will not come across.

Well, the velocity will obviously help with getting louder and quiter notes. However, I'm afraid you'll lose the timbral variety that you get from plucking the strings at different spots on the strings. If you're thinking of controlling other synths, you might also think of investing in some MIDI controller pedalboard, so you can tweak other MIDI parameters while playing (things such as filter cutoff for example).

As for your second question, I was wondering about the same thing. I'd assume that the note-off message would be transmitted after the string vibration has died out to a sufficiently low amplitude (wondering if this threshold would also be adjustable). You might want to clarify that with the person that's doing the mod.

And, I have another question. The harp is essencially a diatonic instrument, and you get the chromatic notes through the use of pedals. Now, since the pickups are programmed to send a specific note-on/off, and as I understand there is no pitch tracking involved, how are you supposed to get the chromatic notes?

 

[garf]

NoiseWreck,

Well, the velocity will obviously help with getting louder and quiter notes. However, I'm afraid you'll lose the timbral variety that you get from plucking the strings at different spots on the strings

And, I have another question. The harp is essencially a diatonic instrument, and you get the chromatic notes through the use of pedals. Now, since the pickups are programmed to send a specific note-on/off, and as I understand there is no pitch tracking involved, how are you supposed to get the chromatic notes?

-Excellent, excellent observations! With your thought on this it makes me understand where you have really reduced the harp to a piano, so why not just do a midi piano at this point? You have definitely clarified my thinking on this, and made me realize the main failing points of a Midi harp.

Unfortunately this also convinces me that for just wanting the best acoustic sound I can get out of a harp, that Midi is not the way to go.

 

[AlChuck]

Unfortunately this also convinces me that for just wanting the best acoustic sound I can get out of a harp, that Midi is not the way to go.

Yeah, that would be the absolute wrong way to go for that purpose. Adding MIDI to it just makes it a MIDI controller, which is cool in its own right. Even having pickups alone is not going to make it sound better acoustically, it just gives you more control over volume and getting an evenly-balanced signal recorded.