The cold, hard, facts

[Nameless]

Hello. I've been working professionally in my studio for about 30 years now. A kid I have working/learning with me at my studio came to me with a lot of misinformation. He also told me about this website.

I wasn't going to sign up here until I read through all of the misinformation. Let me start by saying there is a lot of good advice here, but there's just as much bad advice and people speaking opinions of the majority instead of facts and experience (which is what bothers me). For example, 90% of the people think <name of preamp here> is a great, budget pre. And maybe only 5 or 10% of the people have actually used it.

I'm sure a lot of you will disagree and probably get angry with this post, which is fine. But for the rest of you who want to put that aside may actually learn something and improve your recordings.

There are some basic facts to getting that 'pro' sound. You'd be surprised at how many 'pro' studios aren't even capable of getting a truly professional sound out of their studios when they have all the necessary gear.

So, without further a due, here are the facts. A lot of these you will probably know, but some you may not.

1. You will not get a pro sound recording amateur/decent musicians playing on amateur/decent instruments. The expensive studios get a 'pro' sound because only the pro musicians can afford it.

2. Gear is not nearly as important as you think

3. Room treatment matters more than any gear you could ever buy. This, along with the musicians/instruments is what really sets apart a pro recording from a home recording.

4. Don't bother 'upgrading' preamps from entry level if you don't have at least a $500 budget. And that will only get you to the next level of "entry-level". You need to dump at least a grand on a good, solid preamp that is capable of yielding professional results (remember #2 and #3 though).

5. Digital plugins suck. Most people can't hear the difference, but when working in a studio for 30+ years it is blatantly obvious, to me anyway. Spend the money on (good) outboard processors. Even the UAD plugins don't compare well to quality outboard gear.

6. Mix in mono. (Seriously). Don't start panning until volume levels are set and EQ and other adjustments have been made.

7. Retrack, retrack, and retrack again. You wouldn't beileve how many overdubs are done in studios. Slight string buzz on one of the acoustic guitar tracks? Redo it. Or punch in if you have to. Slightly too much bass? Retrack with better mic placement. Listen (in mono) to the mix while recording your tracks and move the mic around until it's just right.

8. Monitors don't matter as much as you might think. Yup, just find a pair that provide enough detail and are reasonably flat. By flat, I don't mean ruler flat, either. Just buy a decent pair and be done with it. Use your ears and listen on a bunch of other systems to judge things. Oh, and treat your room.

9. Do people actually spend a grand or more on A/D converters? Wow. Congratulations. You just fell for a huge marketing ploy. I'm not saying converters don't matter, they do. But if you keep your signal chain as short as possible and don't run your tracks through more than 1 A/D conversion, even the converters on most entry level interfaces are good enough. Spend your money elsewhere.

10. "Your signal chain is only as good as the weakest link". FALSE! I hate hearing that, especially from people who are just saying it because it is apparently the 'norm' around here. If you don't know what you're talking about, please sit down and don't spread misinformation.

If you run a $10,000 mic through a $10,000 pre, to a $100 interface that is using $10 converters, it will still sound much better than if all of that gear were entry level. Much MUCH better. Granted, if you replace that interface with a $10,000 one, the quality will be better. But I doubt most of you (and even most recording engineers in other studios) would hear a significant difference! Yup, it's true! Just keep your signal chain short and don't run tracks through more than 1 A/D conversion.

11. Careful who you take advice from around here. I've noticed quite a few people while briefly browsing that seemed to know what they're talking about, but even more people who just say things because everyone else says them.

12. "This track/mic/preamp doesn't take EQ well" - Really? ...You sure? Because I think you're full of crap. EQ is EQ. If it doesn't sound good after EQing, you either a) don't know what you're doing, b) you're EQ sounds like shit, or c) the track sounded like shit to begin with but you didn't notice until you EQd it. This brings me back to #5.

13. "I can't get a good sound out of my amp no matter what I do" - You know why? Because your amp sucks. Or maybe you suck. Not sure. Either way, don't record it. Go ahead and mess with EQ and other settings on the amp, maybe you'll get lucky. Otherwise, throw it out. Don't record something if it sounds bad (why would you even want to?).

14. "If it's analog/tube, it's gotta be good!" I've heard just as many tube amps and tube gear that sounded worse than even some not-so-good digital gear and amps! Nothing is better than a good piece of analog gear in my opinion, but just because it's analog doesn't make it good!

15. You're not ready to master yourself - FALSE. If you can mix your own songs you can master them. That's usually the problem though. Most people CAN'T mix their own songs well enough to get a good result that's even worth mastering.

16. STOP RUSHING TO THE NEXT STEP! - People are always thinking to themselves "That doesn't sound that good, I'll fix it later." If it's during the tracking stage, they say they'll fix it in the mix. If it's in the mix, they say they'll fix it in the mastering stage. This is the reason you are not getting a sound you're happy with.

I'll post more as I think of them. Most of these some of you (maybe the majority of you) already know.

Also if anyone has questions I'll be glad to answer. I'm usually very busy but this week I'm taking a little vacation and I wouldn't mind giving advice/answers to some of you.

 

[LogicDeLuxe]

Much of what you wrote is true as far as I can tell. Though some points should be slightly more precise.

5. Digital plugins suck. Most people can't hear the difference, but when working in a studio for 30+ years it is blatantly obvious, to me anyway. Spend the money on (good) outboard processors. Even the UAD plugins don't compare well to quality outboard gear.

Here you should differencate from recording and mixing/mastering. Sure, any serious guitarist would agree that there is no replacement for tubeamps and analog effect devices. What comes after recording can be perfectly done digitally, though. One a/d-conversion only, remember? Sure, if you have external devices working completely digital you like, use them as well. It's more a matter how skilled the developer was rather than if he chosed to implement it in an external device or as a plugin. Certainly nobody has used all of them, hence experience might differ a lot.

10. "Your signal chain is only as good as the weakest link". FALSE! I hate hearing that, especially from people who are just saying it because it is apparently the 'norm' around here. If you don't know what you're talking about, please sit down and don't spread misinformation.

If you run a $10,000 mic through a $10,000 pre, to a $100 interface that is using $10 converters, it will still sound much better than if all of that gear were entry level.

You confuse "weakest" with "cheapest" here, I think. In this example, also musician's skills, instruments, room, micing technics, mixing skills, mastering skills have to be considered "links", especially as you mentioned your points 2 and 3. Though, I agree that if you don't get a decent sound with that setup, it probably is not the converter which causes it.

 

[mshilarious]

I only disagree, in essence, with one point: have you confused this board with some other more gear-oriented board? Because most of us here beat the hell out of the room treatment drum, emphasize mic placement, quality of recorded sounds etc. We also try to teach people how to mix, master, etc. In fact the #1 reason given in mastering threads why people can't self-master is not gear, but their listening environment, due to lack of treatment!

Please don't confuse when you read newbies giving bad advice to newbies with the many pros--I ain't counting myself among them--but guys like Harvey Gerst, John Scrip, Tom Volpicelli, Glen Stephens, Fletcher, Ed Rei, and several others I'm forgetting, or whose real names I don't know, who have been here for three or five or even more years giving the exact same advice you just did, but without the attitude of condescension towards our board.

So forgive me if I feel slighted on their behalf.

You also aren't the first pro to stop by and offer to entertain our questions when you have time. I don't begrudge that offer, but instead of posting an open query, why not just go to the MP3 Clinic and offer advice whenever you have time? Trust me, I've seen this thread several times, and you'll be much happier with the experience if you consider that.

Regards,

Jon O'Neil
- a purveyor of really cheap gear




PS I can't agree with point about digital plugs, specifically the UAD ones (I don't have much experience with others). First, it is inconsistent with your point about expensive vs. cheap converters, therefore it is immaterial that the plugs don't sound equally as good as the hardware. At any rate, UAD plugs have been used by Grammy-award winning engineers on Grammy-award winning tracks, so I highly doubt a UAD plug is holding back the quality of a recording in a material fashion.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

O Nameless one ,

As someone else who has also been at this racket for almost 30 years I concur with everything you have said. I could nit pick at wording or semantics here or there, but basically you got it spot on. There are probably a good 12-15 regulars on this board who have written exactly what you have in one form or another over time on this board, many of us several times over. And honestly most of the regular contibuters to this board get most of those points mostly right.

The problem with forums like this is this is the Internet and there is a LOT of those with the Internet Culture in their blood on this board. These folks believe the Internet makes a level playing field for everyone, and just because they have a keyboard and a modem that their opinion is of equal value to everyone else's, regardless of their knowledge, education or experience. There is also a bit of a social element to it, some folks ask questions and give answers because they want to be part of a social community or share their young hobby, not because they are dead serious experienced audio engineers in persuit of perfection.

Because of all this, there is always going to be a relaitively low S/N ratio on these forums. It's sometimes depressing, sometimes infuriating, always challanging. But an iron fist just doesn't work in this medium. There are a couple of regulars on this board who are not stupid and know their subject relatively well, but they come across as assholes, and therefore only a few in the choir actually listen to them. Those who understand the social dynamics of the forum - as well as the demographics of the participants and audience - put on the velvet glove, and play the part of Officer Friendly while policing the bullshit, are the ones who have the strongest signal and remove the most noise.

G.

 

[SonicAlbert]

Also if anyone has questions I'll be glad to answer. I'm usually very busy but this week I'm taking a little vacation and I wouldn't mind giving advice/answers to some of you.

Nameless, if you are going to throw down like that in your first post, you need to back it up with some sort of proof. As in, let's hear some of your work.

Not that I doubt you, as I do generally agree with your advice.

Your comment about the weakest link is good, but you actually kind of proved that the chain is only as good as the weakest link. Of course, as you improve the gear in the signal chain, the overall sound will get better as you said. But the weakest link will still be dragging the whole thing down to below it's true potential, kind of a bottleneck. Once all the gear is up to par I do believe you can hear the difference fairly clearly.

As far as converters, I also agree in general about that, but I can spot the differences between a budget converter and a good one fairly easily in blind tests. Once you know what to listen for it's not all that subtle. *Totally* agree about plugins, although I have found a few that I like.

I think the best advice you've given so far, and something that indeed is not mentioned much around here, is about tracking until you get it right. Having that standard of perfection and *not settling for less*. Really, really important and I thank you for bringing that up in such a strong way.

To that I would add that making sure one's instrument is *perfectly* in tune is an uber important factor. That's another thing that often gets overlooked in home brew tracks.

I hope you come back and post some more, whoever you are.

 

[Freudian Slip]

My first thought was that nameless is a regular, as I began to read..??


I think you will have to establish who you are Nameless before I don't just ask one of the many established pro's here for advice. No offense but I know the Ford Van is Ed Rei and that makes a difference. In fact if you are Ed PM me I'll keep it under my hat

F.S.

 

[LeeRosario]

Hello. I've been working professionally in my studio for about 30 years now. A kid I have working/learning with me at my studio came to me with a lot of misinformation. He also told me about this website.

I think you're missing the point of this website. It needs to be taken with a giant grain of salt.

Nowhere on this site does it say, "prosound web or mix online". We don't have editors checking facts here, and that should be understood before becoming an active member of this type of site.

I think what's more important now is that your student does have you as a mentor, and rather than trying to be the parent complaining to the board of education about something that bothers you, just teach him how to sort through good and bad information.

 

[mshilarious]

I think you will have to establish who you are Nameless before I don't just ask one of the many established pro's here for advice. No offense but I know the Ford Van is Ed Rei and that makes a difference. In fact if you are Ed PM me I'll keep it under my hat

F.S.

Doesn't quite read like Ed. Also, Ed is a big fan of pointing out his use of really cheap gear of all types; not just converters.

 

[Nameless]

I think it's great that a lot of you are striving for professional results at home. While my post may have sounded offensive (or even repetitive since you say it has been posted before) I thought it would help some people.

While there are a lot of 'tricks' in the recording industry to work with what you have, it really comes down to the room, musicians (especially the musicians), the song, and the instruments. The rest is secondary, which apparently most of you seem to know already.

I just get confused when seeing people asking about buying $3000+ preamps and whatnot, yet don't even have any acoustic treatment in their room, or sub-par instruments. Or trying to "upgrade" from a DMP3 to a $200 pre. I think this board needs a simple FAQ posted for everyone to refer to when they're just starting out or have some questions.

I choose to remain nameless for several reasons (no I'm not a regular on this board). Whether you choose to listen to me or not is fine. I don't really care.

I'm assuming this will turn into a "prove yourself" thread pretty quickly. And I don't want to waste time with that, I'd rather be trying to help people get better sounds, I don't feel I have anything to prove.

Also, this is the internet. For all you know I could just be bullshitting about who I am and what I know. So take it with a grain of salt like you would with anyone's advice on here. That's a good thing. And part of what I was trying to say from the beginning.

 

[mshilarious]

I think this board needs a simple FAQ posted for everyone to refer to when they're just starting out or have some questions.

OK, there are a few things you should understand about this board that are very different from some other boards:

1) There is a FAQ, sort of. Enter homerecording.com in your browser, then instead of clicking on the BBS box, click on the FAQ/Tutorials link. It's good stuff Dragon (the moderator) wrote, albeit about eight years ago, so it's somewhat dated with respect to changes in PC technology, etc.

2) Other than cleaning out spam approximately once a week, Dragon basically doesn't moderate the board at all. There are almost no stickies. People have been asking for new boards for many years, and they will never get them. Some other boards have outdated names (Cool Edit, Sonic Foundry), but they also will probably never be changed.

3) Dragon is very content to run this place laissez-faire. Therefore there is exactly a 0% chance that the boards, or any individual board, will get a sticky or a FAQ. If you wish to avoid becoming frustrated here, you will have to accept this.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I just get confused when seeing people asking about buying $3000+ preamps and whatnot, yet don't even have any acoustic treatment in their room

Most of those folks are victims of manufacturer hype becuase (other than places like this forum) they have no place to go for information other than the magazine ads and the catalogs and the local Guitar Center. They are led by all these sources to believe that gear is the answer and that gear will do all the work for them. The Staples Easy Button with a VU meter. Just lay out a few long on your new revolving charge and all your problems will be solved.

BTW, I checked out that preamp thread you're citing. Frankly I think you made some rookie Internet mistakes in mis- or over-interpreting some of the posts that you were reacting to. Text forums like this are a very difficult medium to muddle thorugh sometimes, the chance and occurance of misunderstanding is very high; especially when most Internet people don't like to either type or read for more than 50 characters. I frankly didn't see where your opinion and the posts to which you were resoonding were all that far apart, actually. They weren't saying quite what you accused them of saying, at least not to the degree you thought they were. There was no chance to reconcile the conversation because you came in with both guns blazing and everybody else either ducked for cover or started shooting back.

I might recommend throttling back on the vitriol and the condesention and pressing a bit harder on the contextual understanding, and you might find your words of wisdom and experience penetrating the fog of Internet a little better. If, OTOH, such diplomacy is not your style or your game, then don't expect to get a whole lot of people to listen to you unless or until you give them reason to look past your angry facade.

G.

 

[cello_pudding]

...what posts did you read?

the first thing i saw when i came to these boards was room treatment! room treatment! bass traps! bass traps!!!!!!

i also see the threads of "i want to upgrade for 200" threads...and usually people do respond like "uh...upgrade?"

i must say, there are some crappy plugins, there are good ones. usually the only thing that is really crappy is the person turning the knobs.

 

[Freudian Slip]

Doesn't quite read like Ed. Also, Ed is a big fan of pointing out his use of really cheap gear of all types; not just converters.

Ya I know, Just making a point. I would like to know who you are Nameless. I'd love to use you as a source for advice & info, but I tend to reserve those spots for people I have grown to know and trust or can referrance. Even at that professional opinions vary on many subjects IE: monitoring and mastering.

I don't find your post offensive in the least It's usefullness however is determined buy many factors. Not the least of which is the source and the recipeint.

Hope you stick around so we can get to know you. After that bombs away

F.S.

 

[Massive Master]

I was thinking that you were a "regular" under a different name until I read:

Also if anyone has questions I'll be glad to answer. I'm usually very busy but this week I'm taking a little vacation and I wouldn't mind giving advice/answers to some of you.

Be VERY careful making offers like that... People will take you up on it. Even when you *don't* make that offer. I've ended up turning *off* PM'ing abilities on most forums I frequent because of it (dozens and dozens of daily PM's asking goofy "Audio 101" questions) - and I never even made the offer.

DISCLAIMER: It's not that we don't want to be "helpful" most of the time - Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. But a lot of people expect you to give them 25 years of experience in a few paragraphs. And when you start off that first paragraph with "It's not that simple..." then expect some of them to get downright angry and unfriendly with you.

That phrase in my signature file is there for a reason.

Otherwise, back to our regularly scheduled program...

DIGRESSION: SouthSIDE Glen - "Apply direct to forehead" -- Dude, you freakin' crack me up. We've gotta do coffee some time.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

...what posts did you read?

Well, I don't want to really carry the argument from that thread over to this one, but the thread and posts are easy to find. As of this writing, Nameless only has three posts on this board, and two of them are right here. Find the other Namless post and you've found the thread. It's just as I read it, most of what was being said wasn't really all that different than what Namelss came in and cried bullshit on. it was just being stated from different angles. Now, maybe I'm wrong about this, but I got the distinct impression that the difference was far more in attitude than in content.

i must say, there are some crappy plugins, there are good ones. usually the only thing that is really crappy is the person turning the knobs.

Amen to that, brother.

G.

 

[chazba]

Nameless is right about many things....most notably...musicianship. After listening to the mp3's for several years now, I have concluded that many of US (me too) would get more improvement in our recordings by investing the time and money into scales and arpeggios instead of aquiring and struggling with the learning curves of a bunch of new gear. I said ME TOO dammit!


chazba

 

[gummblefish]

Im lucky in that im perfect in everyway...Now im off to watch some more episodes of Benny Hill.

 

[true-eurt]

If I had coursed my career life in the direction of Audio Engineer and planned on making a living at it....I would have attended an Engineering school.

 

[RAMI]

I like jello.

 

[gummblefish]

"loud Noises"