The absolute best pickup for acoustic guitars???

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pisces7378

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All price and sanity aside... which is the world's absolute best acoustic guitar pickup on the market?

I have a Gibson SJ-200 SWEET acoustic guitar. It sounds like butter in your ears. And I want to make it electric. But I absolutely HATE the "acoustic electric" sound that 99.9% of all guitars have.

So far I have only had those shitty Dean Markley pop in pick ups. They feedback like hell and sound thin and planky.

I don't care if it takes me using a pick up in conjunction with a special pre-amp. In fact this notion intrigues me. I think Fishman does that a lot. I am not above spending the money, I just want the best without having to just prop my AKG C451B cond. mic up on stage infront of the sound hole.

What do you guys think?

Cheers!

Mike
 
The best sound is a microphone and good mic technique. Period, end of story, no question asked.

That being said, almost no one has mic technique that good while on stage. For most people, the first step towards getting a good sound on stage is, indeed, piezo pickup with a preamp. There are a number of versions of this. The first company to offer the internal preamp option was Highlander, which was designed by Rick Turner and Bob Wolstein. It is still a very popular choice, and they sound very good. The downside of the Highlander is the actual pickup. It is a length of coaxial piezo cable, which was originally designed to help military submarine sonar operators hear in the "blind" spot behind the propellers (or “screws"). It would be trailed behind the subs, and would pickup vibrations in the water. The problem with this is that, the cable is round. Installing them correctly requires that you rout the bottom of the saddle slot to match the round profile of the pickup, and it is recommended that you also have a concave bottom of the saddle. This is, obviously, time consuming and expensive to install.

Fishman is the industry leader in piezo pickup industry, and for good reason. They make a very solid product. The other reason they in such a dominant position is that they make all of the pickups used by Martin, Gibson, and all Taylors with pickups in the 400 series and under. This is, needless to say, a great boon to their business, and to their marketing department. I have a Fishman in the one guitar I own with a pickup in it, until recently it was the one I liked the most, and is half of the system I would use if I was playing out a lot. They have two basic models, the Matrix Natural I, and the Matrix Natural II. The Natural I is a (mostly) flat preamp, which will (generally) sound better, and is intended as an all purpose pickup, good for all kinds of situations. The Natural II preamp has a dip in the EQ which is intended to cut back on feedback when playing in a louder situation, such as a band. It is also designed to cut through the noise in a band situation. My preference is to use the Natural I for all situations, because I can find the resonant frequencies myself and make the necessary cuts with a good parametric EQ. As a live sound engineer, I would rather an artist had the Natural I, as it gives me more control (it is easier to remove than to add). The main advantage of the Matrix, and the reason it is still the one I recommend above all others, is the ease of installation (relative term, it should still be done professionally). For us, our installation of the Fishman is about $75-100, and the Highlander is in the $100-150 range. The Fishman system is also slightly cheaper, at least we sell it for a little less than our friends in town who sell the Highlander. Total installed cost for the Fishman at our shop is $200-$225. The Matrix systems are also intended as the base unit for the Fishman Blender system, and can be upgraded with ease, though for a rather high cost.

As I said earlier, I used to like the sound of the Fishman best, and I do still like the system. However, there is a new system out, made by a company called D-Tar, which is co-owned by Rick Turner and Seymour Duncan. Their entry into the piezo/preamp category is called the Timbre Line. The idea behind it was that the Highlander and the Fishman were underpowered with only one nine volt battery. They both (the Highlander and the Fishman) have fairly harsh high ends. Rick's thought was that the nine volt systems where distorting the upper harmonics, so he designed the Timbre Line preamp to work at eighteen volts, using two nine volt batteries. This gives the Timbre Line much greater headroom, which minimizes this distortion. Shortly after they introduced the Timbre Line, Rick sent us (and a number of other prominent luthiers) a free Timbre Line to try out. We installed it in one of our guitars which was hanging on the wall as a way of trying it out. My impressions were that the Timbre Line is a little brighter than the Fishman or the Highlander, but without the high end harshness of those two systems. I am quite fond of the sound of the Timbre Line. These days, it is half of that system I mentioned which I would use if I played out a lot more. The major disadvantage with the Timbre Line is the same as with the Highlander, which is the pickup element itself. It is the same (or same type) coaxial piezo cable as is used for the Highlander, which means it has the correspondingly higher installation cost. It is a matter of opinion whether the slightly improved sound (and it is SLIGHTLY) is worth the additional cost. We are selling the Timbre Line for about $15.00 more than the Fishman, and installation of about $100-150, like with the Highlander. If I was putting another pickup in one of my guitars, I would use a Timbre Line. They also have many new developments coming up, which they are consulting with other builders on, but which I do not feel comfortable talking about yet. I will just say that, within the year, I may not be recommending the Fishman as much as I have been up to this point.

There are other undersaddle pickups out there, but I would suggest you stick to the three I have mentioned, as they are (in my mind) the best. There are of course other styles of pickups. In the same family, but of a different species from the undersaddle systems above is the L.R. Baggs iBeam, which is available in both active and passive versions. They are a piezo system, but they do not use an under the saddle pickup. Instead, they use a pickup which is imbedded in a block of some composite material, which attaches to the underside of the bridge plate. They sound quite nice, but they are prone to feedback, as the pickup is not under pressure (which makes a big difference in feedback elimination). As with all professional pickups however, the iBeam does require professional installation, though it is usually less than with a Fishman system (though the pickup itself is more expensive).

The other major type of acoustic pickups are the magnetic pickups. These are, in essence, electric guitar pickups designed to sound more like an acoustic pickup. They do not sound as acoustic as undersaddle pickups, but some of them are very good. The best magnetic pickup by far is the Sunrise. They have been around for probably fifteen years, and they are still the best. If you want to recreate the Leo Kottke sound, you need to practice a lot more, but then you want to install a Sunrise. This is also the pickup Lyle Lovett uses. If I was playing out a lot, this is the other half of the system I would use. The Sunrise is an excellent pickup, and is a very high end piece of equipment. You will not find a better product for its type.

Fishman also makes a Magnetic pickup, called the Rare Earth. They are also very nice pickups. They sound a little more electric than the Sunrise to my ear, but they are still very nice. They are also smaller and lighter than the Sunrise, which some people will like.

Finally, there are the combination systems. The most popular of these is the Fishman Blender. This combines they Matrix undersaddle pickup/preamp system with a small Crown microphone, which clips onto one of the braces. This system is very popular for players who are usually the primary focus when they play. The best know person using one that I am personally familiar with is Pat Donahue, who plays on A Prairie Home Companion every week. There are, of course, many others who use these systems, and there are others who make these systems. The L.R. Baggs Dual Source is a similar type of system, but the piezo elements in them is even worse to install than the Highlander, and I don't think they sound as good as the Fishman. Fishman also makes a Blender system for the Rare Earth systems. I have no experience with these systems, so I will not comment.

Finally, there is the possibility of putting together a combination system of your own. This, as you may have noticed, is what I would do if I had any need for it at all. I rarely play out, so I feel no need for this system, but if I did, I would take my hints from Michael Hedges. He used an old style of piezo crystal pickup made by Barcus Berry (I believe), which used three piezo crystals stuck to the inside of the top. In addition to this, he used a Sunrise. The combination of the two provides an interesting mix. The Sunrise definitely has a better low end, and it responds much better to the tapping for which Hedges was so well known. The piezo pickups do a much better with the high end, and can also pickup the thumps, slaps, and bangs on the body for which he was also known. I like this combination a lot, and if I was to start playing out a lot, I would use the same ideas, but I would be doing it with a Sunrise and a D-TAR Timbre Line.

What I would probably recommend for you, though, is that you start out with a Fishman Matrix Natural I. If you are still unhappy with the sound, step up to the blender system, with the microphone. I would highly recommend, however, that you start out by trying it without the microphone, as it is the right system for probably 90 percent of the players out there.

So that is a long answer to your question, but it is most of what I know. I hope it helps.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Well I didn't ask the question but...thanks for the answer, Light.


lou
 
Thorough answer, Light, thanks. I use the Fishman Prefix PLUS stereo blender system, and it really is impressive when used properly. With that system, the mic is built into the preamp, not clipped to a brace. It also uses an undersaddle pickup. The 2 signals can be outputted, mixed, to one TS cable, or as separate signals by a TRS jack to a splitter, so the 2 signals can be processed separately. Onboard EQ and notch control reduce feedback significantly, once you get the hang of it. I route the 2 signals to the 2 channels of a good preamp with compression and EQ for further processing (I use a Joemeek twinQ). It really does sound great, but it takes a while to dial in the settings. Good luck-Richie
 
I'm pretty sure Arnie Lazarus had FRAPs with inside-mount pre long before the Highlander came along.

If you really want a "mic" sound, I knew a guy in CA that used double-stick tape to attach a Countryman lav mic to the backstripe of an M-38 and it had a beautiful sound. He positioned it just about centered behind the soundhole.

Michael Hedges used FRAPs. Trance Audio picked up where Arnie left off.

The problem I have with the budget piezos is the preamps. You need an amp that can boost a piezo signal about 100,000 times to get to line level. Arnie's genious, besides coming up with the 3-D transducer, was to mate his piezo element with a very good quality bi-FET amp.

The most critical thing about FRAP's or Trance piezo elements is the placement. My FRAP's are located in line with the bridge pins, about an inch from the high-E string, adhered with RTV silicone, next to the brace.

Trance's stereo units are mounted in similar fashion on each side of the bridge.
 
c7sus said:
I'm pretty sure Arnie Lazarus had FRAPs with inside-mount pre long before the Highlander came along.


I just checked with my in family expert (my dad, who used to do all of the FRAP installs at our shop), and they did not have an internally mounted preamp. They did have an external preamp, but the internal preamp was one of the Highlanders innovations. The other problem with the FRAP pickups was the way they were mounted. Feedback is significantly reduced by having the pickup under the pressure of the strings. This was not a Highlander innovation, L.R. Baggs did that first, but the Highlander was the first pickup with a continuous pickup element, as opposed to the individual piezo crystals of the original Baggs and Fishman pickups.



c7sus said:
If you really want a "mic" sound, I knew a guy in CA that used double-stick tape to attach a Countryman lav mic to the backstripe of an M-38 and it had a beautiful sound. He positioned it just about centered behind the soundhole.


The problem with this, as well as the mics for the Fishman Blender systems, and other combination systems, is that they have the mic inside the guitar. That is not what a guitar sounds like. The sound of the guitar comes partially from the top, and partially from the box. The mic inside the box just doesn't pickup the same sound. Actually, the best mic solution I have seen is a mic that James Taylor uses, which is attached to the outside of the guitar, right by the neck, and has a goose neck which picks up the sound very much like you would do in the studio. The problem with this, and any other mic, is that they don't just pickup the guitar. They also pickup the bass, and the drums, and the guy with the Strat. That is why, as a sound guy, I hate using mics for live work. Even if you put them in the box, they still pickup everything else.


c7sus said:
Michael Hedges used FRAPs.

Yep. I just couldn't remember their name last night, after all, they have been out of business for years now. Last I heard, Neal Young is still using the system with the three elements, which is the same model (I don't remember the name) that Michael Hedges used.


c7sus said:
The problem I have with the budget piezos is the preamps. You need an amp that can boost a piezo signal about 100,000 times to get to line level. Arnie's genious, besides coming up with the 3-D transducer, was to mate his piezo element with a very good quality bi-FET amp.

Well, I would not call the Fishman or the Highlander systems "budget" systems, and there is no question that they sound better then the old FRAP and Barcus Berry point contact systems.


c7sus said:
The most critical thing about FRAP's or Trance piezo elements is the placement. My FRAP's are located in line with the bridge pins, about an inch from the high-E string, adhered with RTV silicone, next to the brace.

Trance's stereo units are mounted in similar fashion on each side of the bridge.


Well, it depends which FRAP system you are using, but yeah. The most important thing though, with piezo systems, is independence matching. Piezos put out something like a million ohms. Independence that high is very susceptible to capacitance, which is why the internal preamps were such a good idea. They get the independence down to guitar level with only a foot or so of cable, which is very important.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I've got FRAP brochures here from the mid-80's showing a cutaway rendition of internal-mount preamps.

Arnie built a custom preamp for the FRAP I installed in my D-45.

AFAIK it's a one-off design, with a DI for an electric guitar as well.

I've also got an original FRAP Model T that I bought from David Santos when he was in Costa Mesa, CA about 1982-3

Your father doesn't happen to know what became of Arnie by any chance?

My pre took a year for him to deliver, and when I would call him every couple of months he would say he was having health problems.

I kinda wondered if his health problems were related to substances or natural causes.

Besides Neil Young and Michael Hedges, Beck also uses vintage stereo FRAPs in combination with a Sunrise pickup in his HD28VR that he uses for gigging, installed by Larry Cragg.
 
I have played every acoustic pickup system under the sun. IMO, get the Sunrise. It will run you around $400 for the pickup and preamp box, but it's money well spent.

If you can't afford the Sunrise, get the Fishman Rare Earth.
 
I was under the impression that installed "under the bridge" pickups where you actually plug something into your acoustic were the best.

I thought that sound-hole pop in pickups were the least highly regarded pickups. I thought they feedback all the time. I thought they were all magnetic and just plain suck.

I would have thought that an installed Fishman Acoustic Matrix Series I or II would be better than anything placed in the sound hole. Am I just completely wrong?
 
It's really a matter of personal taste. There's not one that's "the best", only what's best for you.

Good quality soundhole pickups tend to be more feedback resistent that the under the saddle variety. I'm not talking about the $40 Seymour Duncan Woody or others like that. A ggod one like the Sunrise, Fishman or EMG ACS is installed permanently in the guitar, same as your standard piezo system.

Another pickup I'm keen to try is the McIntyre Acoustic Feather. Supposed to sound phenomenal.

FWIW, I finally bit the bullet and ordered a Sunrise and pre-amp box for my J45. It's the last one with a piezo in it.
 
pisces7378 said:
I was under the impression that installed "under the bridge" pickups where you actually plug something into your acoustic were the best.

I thought that sound-hole pop in pickups were the least highly regarded pickups. I thought they feedback all the time. I thought they were all magnetic and just plain suck.

I would have thought that an installed Fishman Acoustic Matrix Series I or II would be better than anything placed in the sound hole. Am I just completely wrong?


They are very different beasts. The cheapest pickups are mostly magnetic, and mostly suck. The Sunrise and the Rare Earth are not cheap, and do not suck. The Sunrise is one of the nicest pickups around, and though it does have a "magnetic" sound, the Fishman Matrix Natural I and Natural II have very "pezio" sounds. Neither of them actually sounds like YOUR guitar; they are just approximating an acoustic sound. I mean, Leo Kottke uses a Sunrise, so they must have something going for them, you know. The Sunrise and the Rare Earth are Magnetic, but that is not an inherently bad thing. It is just different.

Sorry if I am not particularly coherent today, but I was up at 5:00 A.M. to get to a 6:00 hob this morning, and 5:30 A.M. is a shitty time of day to be shoveling your car out from under two and a half feet of snow. I am wicked tired.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I decided to go with the Fishman Rare Earth Blend pickup.

It is a sound hole instalable pickup that you can switch between single coil and humbucking. And it has a condensor mic as well. The idea is, that you get the attack from the magnetic pickup, but it also has the cond. mic to pick up the chamber acoustics.

And since I have a beautiful brand new SJ-200 Super Jumbo, I want as much of that pretty sound as possible.

It wasn't cheap, but it serves my purposes to a "T".

Thanks for your help guys!

Mike
 
Just to make this even longer, I'll ask a follow-up question...

I'm building a nylon string/electric thing - like a Godin. What's a reasonable approach to applifying the nylon strings?

I have an old Kay solid body that I'm going to route out and put a nice spruce top on. So it'll be a hollow-body, thin-line, nylon kind of thing...

any suggestions???
 
Fusioninspace said:
Just to make this even longer, I'll ask a follow-up question...

I'm building a nylon string/electric thing - like a Godin. What's a reasonable approach to applifying the nylon strings?

I have an old Kay solid body that I'm going to route out and put a nice spruce top on. So it'll be a hollow-body, thin-line, nylon kind of thing...

any suggestions???


Well, Godin gets all off their electronics from L.R. Baggs. You could use just about any piezo/preamp combination. See my above post.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
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