knightfly
GrouchyOldFartOnBatteries
I have one, and even though I'd buy it again, there are some shortcomings that may put you off.
The downside - all the digital mixers in this price range seem to cut your available tracks in half when you go to high sample rates. It's a matter of this being a computer, and only so much processing power. The DM-24 doesn't allow you to assign the 8 busses to the stereo main - the only workaround is running the buss outs back into other inputs and assigning THEM to the mains. As yet, the DM-24 doesn't generate MTC but REQUIRES it to use automation. This will be fixed in the forthcoming V2.0 firmware. The mic pre-s sound very good, but have a linearity problem when recording low level signals with mics - they get very "twitchy" in that part of their rotation. Tascam has no plans to upgrade this on production mixers, but will replace them all if you ship the mixer to them (splitting shipping costs) and pay $200 for the upgrade. If you want to interface the DM-24 with a computer-based DAW at high sample rates, you are limited to one, possibly two interfaces that I know of. The one that has been tested by its maker costs about $1600 to do 8 channels of I/O between the DM-24 and computer. It is made by RME. Tascam has been trying to get SEK'd to respond regarding compatibility of their interfaces with the DM-24 at high sample rates, so far no response. At normal sample rates, you have several other choices of interface so if you don't care about high sample rates, you're set. These are the main downsides to the DM-24, although there are other small ones that usually can be worked around.
The upside - Any other mixer within $3000 of the price should be cowering in the corner, because the DM-24 kicks their ass. The converters are the same as the ones in Tascam's MX-2424 HDR, which has been praised by even some of the analog gurus in Nashville as sounding very good, warm, smooth, etc - the routing flexibility is very good, you can route almost anything to almost anything else internally, and you have the ability to name and save "presets", which are literally everything you can tweak in the mixer. So, the mixer ships with some basic presets, such as "recording", "mixdown", etc, which can either be modified and saved as your own or scratched and done over.
The DM-24 allows MIDI messages to be sent for nearly every control on the surface, so I can be used as a sophisticated control surface for any software that can respond to MIDI messages. For example, Samplitude allows the configuring of up to 16 different MIDI controllers PER TRACK - Cakewalk/Sonar can also be remotely controlled this way.
MMC is sent by the DM-24, but there is almost NO support in any software package yet for that - one workaround I saw was a little applet written by a user and pointed to on the Tascam BBS, that takes MMC commands and converts them to keystroke commands. Sooo, any app that has keystroke commands as alternate to mouse clicks can be MMC controlled. I have yet to try this, only heard about it a few days ago.
Bottom line - The DM-24 costs about $2300, and does everything for Non-ProTools software that Digi's $8500 Mix-24 surface does for ProTools AND MORE. (The PT rig is not an actual mixer) - If you want more, you can cascade two DM-24-s with a kit. There are two slots in the rear of the DM, with plugins for 8 analog in-out, more TDIF (the unit is hardwired with 3 8-channel TDIF connectors and 1 ADAT connector) ADAT I/O and the Cascade kit.
In my case, there are a few things I don't like and a LOT of things I do like. If you want more, you should look at the Yamaha O2R-96 for about $10,000 or the Yamaha DM2000, for about $20k. Otherwise, no contest... Steve
The downside - all the digital mixers in this price range seem to cut your available tracks in half when you go to high sample rates. It's a matter of this being a computer, and only so much processing power. The DM-24 doesn't allow you to assign the 8 busses to the stereo main - the only workaround is running the buss outs back into other inputs and assigning THEM to the mains. As yet, the DM-24 doesn't generate MTC but REQUIRES it to use automation. This will be fixed in the forthcoming V2.0 firmware. The mic pre-s sound very good, but have a linearity problem when recording low level signals with mics - they get very "twitchy" in that part of their rotation. Tascam has no plans to upgrade this on production mixers, but will replace them all if you ship the mixer to them (splitting shipping costs) and pay $200 for the upgrade. If you want to interface the DM-24 with a computer-based DAW at high sample rates, you are limited to one, possibly two interfaces that I know of. The one that has been tested by its maker costs about $1600 to do 8 channels of I/O between the DM-24 and computer. It is made by RME. Tascam has been trying to get SEK'd to respond regarding compatibility of their interfaces with the DM-24 at high sample rates, so far no response. At normal sample rates, you have several other choices of interface so if you don't care about high sample rates, you're set. These are the main downsides to the DM-24, although there are other small ones that usually can be worked around.
The upside - Any other mixer within $3000 of the price should be cowering in the corner, because the DM-24 kicks their ass. The converters are the same as the ones in Tascam's MX-2424 HDR, which has been praised by even some of the analog gurus in Nashville as sounding very good, warm, smooth, etc - the routing flexibility is very good, you can route almost anything to almost anything else internally, and you have the ability to name and save "presets", which are literally everything you can tweak in the mixer. So, the mixer ships with some basic presets, such as "recording", "mixdown", etc, which can either be modified and saved as your own or scratched and done over.
The DM-24 allows MIDI messages to be sent for nearly every control on the surface, so I can be used as a sophisticated control surface for any software that can respond to MIDI messages. For example, Samplitude allows the configuring of up to 16 different MIDI controllers PER TRACK - Cakewalk/Sonar can also be remotely controlled this way.
MMC is sent by the DM-24, but there is almost NO support in any software package yet for that - one workaround I saw was a little applet written by a user and pointed to on the Tascam BBS, that takes MMC commands and converts them to keystroke commands. Sooo, any app that has keystroke commands as alternate to mouse clicks can be MMC controlled. I have yet to try this, only heard about it a few days ago.
Bottom line - The DM-24 costs about $2300, and does everything for Non-ProTools software that Digi's $8500 Mix-24 surface does for ProTools AND MORE. (The PT rig is not an actual mixer) - If you want more, you can cascade two DM-24-s with a kit. There are two slots in the rear of the DM, with plugins for 8 analog in-out, more TDIF (the unit is hardwired with 3 8-channel TDIF connectors and 1 ADAT connector) ADAT I/O and the Cascade kit.
In my case, there are a few things I don't like and a LOT of things I do like. If you want more, you should look at the Yamaha O2R-96 for about $10,000 or the Yamaha DM2000, for about $20k. Otherwise, no contest... Steve
TexRoadkill
Audio Bum
I'm having a hard time getting into digital mixers. The interfaces are always so unintuitive and the benefits are slight. All you really gain is built in DAC, effects and routing but the DAC and effects are usually average and the routing schemes are about as logical as an Escher drawing.
Maybe that's just me, though.
Maybe that's just me, though.
JR#97
New member
TexRoadkill said:
Which digital mixers have you worked with? I thought you were a Roland VM3100Pro guru? That mixer is not intuitive at all. I started out on a Yamaha O3D and hated it. Swore against digital mixers. Tried the TM-D1000 and didnt' like it either. Played with the Panasonic and liked it, but too pricey at the time. The Spirit Digital was ok, but not enough ok for me to pay out for it. Never tried the Mackie because the price scared me away. Picked up a cheap Fostex VM200 and love it. Very intuitive. I'm about to check out the DM24 and Behringer DX3216... both look more intuitive than any Yamaha mixer.
Thanks for the write up knightfly... a few questions though...
As a DAW control surface, how does it store control change commands? In a table? How many "slots" in the table? Is it user configurable? Are the faders motorized? Does the unit receive control change commands as well? Thanks!
M
musikman316
New member
I love Escher!
I'm going to go ahead with the DM-24... thank you Knightfly for the info.
I'm going to go ahead with the DM-24... thank you Knightfly for the info.
knightfly
GrouchyOldFartOnBatteries
"a few questions though...
As a DAW control surface, how does it store control change commands? In a table? How many "slots" in the table? Is it user configurable? Are the faders motorized? Does the unit receive control change commands as well? Thanks!"
JR, I can answer some of these off the top of my head (scum floats) and some will take a couple of days. I work a 12-hour rotating shift and need to get ready for my last nite shift too soon to find all the answers.
The DM stores cc#s in a table, there is a slot for each control, and (I think) each layer of control. basically, if a control can send MIDI, there is a choice of what you send. Also, there are snapshot memories, don't recall how many, that (probably) store all that info PER PATCH -
Yes, it's user configurable.
Yes, the faders are motorized. when you power up, the LCD screen says "Don't touch faders, calibration in progress" = then, the faders go to min, max, etc, and finally return to where they were when you last powered off. 'Way cool - always wait to turn the DM on until the client is standing there...:=)
I think it recieves control change commands, but don't remember for sure.
If all this seems a little vague, It's because I've spent the last 8 months trying to chase down an acceptable high sample rate interface between the DM and my DAW (Samplitude/Sonar) and too many other projects to mention. Consequently, I've forgotten some of the finer details.
You can download the full manual and read for yourself, along with large hi-rez .gifs here -
http://www.tascam.com/products/digital_mixers/dm24/index.php
scroll down the page - there are several pertinent .pdfs and some pix, as well as downloads for upgrading firmware, etc -
From what little I've seen of the Behringer, it's just a piss-poor knockoff of the Tascam with nowhere near the flexibility. The only experience I've had with Behringer and MIDI was with one of their guitar foot controllers. If that's any indication of their stuff, I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole.
As I said previously, I've seen NOTHING within $3000 or more of the price that can touch the DM-24. I would buy it again, just for the control surface.
As a DAW control surface, how does it store control change commands? In a table? How many "slots" in the table? Is it user configurable? Are the faders motorized? Does the unit receive control change commands as well? Thanks!"
JR, I can answer some of these off the top of my head (scum floats) and some will take a couple of days. I work a 12-hour rotating shift and need to get ready for my last nite shift too soon to find all the answers.
The DM stores cc#s in a table, there is a slot for each control, and (I think) each layer of control. basically, if a control can send MIDI, there is a choice of what you send. Also, there are snapshot memories, don't recall how many, that (probably) store all that info PER PATCH -
Yes, it's user configurable.
Yes, the faders are motorized. when you power up, the LCD screen says "Don't touch faders, calibration in progress" = then, the faders go to min, max, etc, and finally return to where they were when you last powered off. 'Way cool - always wait to turn the DM on until the client is standing there...:=)
I think it recieves control change commands, but don't remember for sure.
If all this seems a little vague, It's because I've spent the last 8 months trying to chase down an acceptable high sample rate interface between the DM and my DAW (Samplitude/Sonar) and too many other projects to mention. Consequently, I've forgotten some of the finer details.
You can download the full manual and read for yourself, along with large hi-rez .gifs here -
http://www.tascam.com/products/digital_mixers/dm24/index.php
scroll down the page - there are several pertinent .pdfs and some pix, as well as downloads for upgrading firmware, etc -
From what little I've seen of the Behringer, it's just a piss-poor knockoff of the Tascam with nowhere near the flexibility. The only experience I've had with Behringer and MIDI was with one of their guitar foot controllers. If that's any indication of their stuff, I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole.
As I said previously, I've seen NOTHING within $3000 or more of the price that can touch the DM-24. I would buy it again, just for the control surface.
JR#97
New member
thanks much knightrider errr... knightfly!
TexRoadkill
Audio Bum
JR#97 said:
I have the Roland at home and it is a bitch. I hate that thing more every day. But it does the job and was as cheap as any Behringer so I can't complain too much. I've messed around with some of the others but haven't gotten into any deep editing or automation on them.
I think I just kinda miss the point of a digital mixer with a DAW. You already have the automation in a DAW so why sacrifice sound quality any further? I find it hard to believe that dollar for dollar any digital mixer can compare to an analog.
There are definately applications that a digital mixer has advantages but that's just my 2cents.
JR#97
New member
TexRoadkill said:
I mainly bought mine to use as a control surface for my DAW. I hate mouse mixing with a passion. I've come close to blowing a gasket so many damn times when I go to move an onscreen fader and it jumps to where my pointer is. Same for onscreen knobs. Plus, other than drawing an envelope, have you tried "recording" automation moves with a mouse? A scroll mouse helps a little, but nothing like grabbing a real fucking fader and a tweaking a real fucking knob! My VM200 has motorized faders, so changing banks is a breeze. Best damn DAW controller I've found and it was only $350.. plus throw in digital mixer stuff! I had looked at that cheapo Tascam US428 as a controller and it's a toy. Same for the Event EZ whatever it's called. No way in hell I'm gonna fork out $1000 for the Steinberg Houston or Logic Control. I guess Mackie has a new out, but it's like $1800... I've always been an analog guy, but having a digital mixer next to my analog mixer sure makes a lot of things a lot easier.
knightfly
GrouchyOldFartOnBatteries
"I hate mouse mixing with a passion. I've come close to blowing a gasket so many damn times when I go to move an onscreen fader and it jumps to where my pointer is. Same for onscreen knobs. Plus, other than drawing an envelope, have you tried "recording" automation moves with a mouse? " -
JR, with you on that one. Here's a half-assed update on DM-24 - Just found out that V2.0 firmware, still scheduled for mid august, will include midi fader layers. this would allow at least 32, possibly 48 different faders with a button push, 16 faders per layer. The extra layers will reportedly do fade, pan and mute. There are a ton more improvements to the board in this firmware, routing, etc -
Also, I just got off the phone with Martin Ucik, head of SEK'd distribution in North America - he claims they are about 4 weeks away from having the ability to handle high sample rates over TDIF2 between their PCI card (PRODIF T) and the DM-24. their card mail orders from Soundchaser.com for $459, vs. about $1750 for the 3 pieces you need from RME. Both setups will connect 8 channels each way between the DM-24 and a DAW at high sample rates - 16 channels at normal rates. Samplitude allows all kinds of MIDI control over their software mixer, and now have a "skin" that shows 32 channels of the mixer on screen at once. Looks like a good combo to me. (The faders on the DM-24 are smooth and a full 100 mm long, so fades should be sweet)
There are so many changes to V2.0 firmware on the DM-24 that their guru is starting a whole new online V2.0 manual. Hope I live long enough to learn it all... Steve
JR, with you on that one. Here's a half-assed update on DM-24 - Just found out that V2.0 firmware, still scheduled for mid august, will include midi fader layers. this would allow at least 32, possibly 48 different faders with a button push, 16 faders per layer. The extra layers will reportedly do fade, pan and mute. There are a ton more improvements to the board in this firmware, routing, etc -
Also, I just got off the phone with Martin Ucik, head of SEK'd distribution in North America - he claims they are about 4 weeks away from having the ability to handle high sample rates over TDIF2 between their PCI card (PRODIF T) and the DM-24. their card mail orders from Soundchaser.com for $459, vs. about $1750 for the 3 pieces you need from RME. Both setups will connect 8 channels each way between the DM-24 and a DAW at high sample rates - 16 channels at normal rates. Samplitude allows all kinds of MIDI control over their software mixer, and now have a "skin" that shows 32 channels of the mixer on screen at once. Looks like a good combo to me. (The faders on the DM-24 are smooth and a full 100 mm long, so fades should be sweet)
There are so many changes to V2.0 firmware on the DM-24 that their guru is starting a whole new online V2.0 manual. Hope I live long enough to learn it all... Steve
JR#97
New member
knightfly said:
Do you know if the Sek'd cards are available with ADAT i/o? That's a nice price.
How does the DM-24 handle aux sends? My VM200 uses seperate 4 seperate aux send fader banks per channel bank giving me a total of 105 faders. Not the smoothest faders, mind you and only 60mm. Maybe you could squeez a few more faders out of the DM-24.
Also, I tried playing with the demo of Samplitude 6.0, but I couldn't figure out how make a midi control map. The help menu was a bit sparce in that area.
knightfly
GrouchyOldFartOnBatteries
SEK'd has only one ADAT card, the PRODIF A. It only has one ADAT port, but up to 3 cards can be in one PC. Not sure of the price, but I would think a 2408 would be simpler for multiple ADAT connectors. You just need either a Mac (ugghh!) or a PC with INTEL chipsets. MOTU doens't know what PC's are yet, probably never will.
Here is the page on IO assigns from the (downloadable PDF) manual. -
Assignable sends and returns
The four sets of analog I/O connectors may be used
as either analog insert points for selected channels or
as the send part of effect loops (I/O display, ASSIGN
SECT. sub-screen, accessed with soft key 4).
Move the cursor to the INSERT or SEND RETURN radio
button and press ENTER to make the setting for the
appropriate assignable connectors.
If the insert mode is selected, move the cursor to the
channel (CH) column, and use the dial and ENTER
key to select and confirm the channel (any channel
from 1 through 32 can be entered here). There is also
an “off” setting (all fields are filled with ---).
The location of the insert can be selected (pre/post
fader) in the POINT field and the insert loop turned on
or off (ON/OFF button) in the ON/OFF column.
If the send loop is selected (the SEND/RETURN radio
button is selected), the send signal source (AUX 1 to
AUX 6) can be selected. To select the send signal
source, move the cursor to the SEND SIGNAL field,
then use the dial and ENTER key to select and con-firm
the source.
NOTE
The assignable returns can be assigned to the inputs in
the first and second I/O screens (“Assigning inputs to
channels” on page 38).
There is a chart in the manual. You really should download it from Tascam's site if you're seriously interested.
Be aware that the new firmware will add to almost every option in the board, due to massive feedback from owners. This will be available mid-august.
I've attached top and rear views from the Tascam site. The top shows 4 sets of balanced send'return jacks among other things.
In Samplitude, open a vip (tutor01.vip, or anything with tracks recorded.
right click on the track #, or anywhere in the upper left track info box. Select Midi Controllers.
In the midi controllers box, you have up to 16 independent midi controllers/channels to choose from for EACH TRACK. Also, note the LEARN button on the lower right. Click it, it turns RED, move any midi controller that's hooked to your system... Cool, huh? Keep looking, there's a thousand cool things about Samp... Steve
Here is the page on IO assigns from the (downloadable PDF) manual. -
Assignable sends and returns
The four sets of analog I/O connectors may be used
as either analog insert points for selected channels or
as the send part of effect loops (I/O display, ASSIGN
SECT. sub-screen, accessed with soft key 4).
Move the cursor to the INSERT or SEND RETURN radio
button and press ENTER to make the setting for the
appropriate assignable connectors.
If the insert mode is selected, move the cursor to the
channel (CH) column, and use the dial and ENTER
key to select and confirm the channel (any channel
from 1 through 32 can be entered here). There is also
an “off” setting (all fields are filled with ---).
The location of the insert can be selected (pre/post
fader) in the POINT field and the insert loop turned on
or off (ON/OFF button) in the ON/OFF column.
If the send loop is selected (the SEND/RETURN radio
button is selected), the send signal source (AUX 1 to
AUX 6) can be selected. To select the send signal
source, move the cursor to the SEND SIGNAL field,
then use the dial and ENTER key to select and con-firm
the source.
NOTE
The assignable returns can be assigned to the inputs in
the first and second I/O screens (“Assigning inputs to
channels” on page 38).
There is a chart in the manual. You really should download it from Tascam's site if you're seriously interested.
Be aware that the new firmware will add to almost every option in the board, due to massive feedback from owners. This will be available mid-august.
I've attached top and rear views from the Tascam site. The top shows 4 sets of balanced send'return jacks among other things.
In Samplitude, open a vip (tutor01.vip, or anything with tracks recorded.
right click on the track #, or anywhere in the upper left track info box. Select Midi Controllers.
In the midi controllers box, you have up to 16 independent midi controllers/channels to choose from for EACH TRACK. Also, note the LEARN button on the lower right. Click it, it turns RED, move any midi controller that's hooked to your system... Cool, huh? Keep looking, there's a thousand cool things about Samp... Steve
Attachments
knightfly
GrouchyOldFartOnBatteries
P
Proveras
I like my recordings.
TDIF?
TDIF question:
Ok, the DM24 has 3 ports of this kind.
In Cool Edit Pro enviroment, or any otherone,
like, lets say Reason or GigaStudio:
when setting up the devices in the softwares, can I choose between ins and outs of the TDIF ports that are going straight to the mixer??
like, 1 & 2 TDIF
3 & 4 TDIF
5 & 6 TDIF
etc, etc... until get 23 & 24 TDIF in or out??
thanks,
I work with LAYLAs so I have never work with TDIF before,
just balanced inputs & outputs.
TDIF question:
Ok, the DM24 has 3 ports of this kind.
In Cool Edit Pro enviroment, or any otherone,
like, lets say Reason or GigaStudio:
when setting up the devices in the softwares, can I choose between ins and outs of the TDIF ports that are going straight to the mixer??
like, 1 & 2 TDIF
3 & 4 TDIF
5 & 6 TDIF
etc, etc... until get 23 & 24 TDIF in or out??
thanks,
I work with LAYLAs so I have never work with TDIF before,
just balanced inputs & outputs.