Tape Decks-Reels On Or Off

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Zacharia

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Hi gang. I've wondered about this for awhile now and can't believe I've never thought to ask the members of this group. There are some people with deep knowledge of tape decks here and I'd like to know people's thoughts regarding keeping reels on decks when the machine is not in use. I've always taken them off at the end of a session with the thought that it saves stress on the hubs not having the weight of the tape sitting on them all of the time. (I have a tsr-8 and it stands straight up perpendicular to the floor.) But taking the tape on and off and ff-ing and rew-ing back to the session on the tape stresses other parts of the machine. I have a good running machine and want to take as good care of it as possible!

What do you folks think/do? Keep them on or take them off?
 
Are you talking about full reels with tape...or the empty take-up reel?

I keep the empty take-up real on both of my decks...but never full tape reels. I mean, if you're working, you don't have to take the tape off every time you stop for a bit, but when the day is done, the tape reels get put back in their boxes.
 
Yes. I'm talking about full reels. I do the same as you and take off the tape reel and leave the take up reel on when I'm done for the night. But when the song I'm working on is 20 minutes into the reel I wonder about leaving the tape on the machine instead of winding it off the take up reel and then fast forwarding back to the same spot when I get back to the room.
 
I don't bother, I generally get one or two recording sessions per week and I'll leave the tapes on for that period. Obviously take the tapes off when I'm demagging but even cleaning, I generally just loosen the tape and clean the transport then tension the tape back once completed.

I'd like to think any stress on the hubs will be negligible in the grand scheme of things, I doubt you would wear out the hubs before you wear out the heads or the motors or any number of parts fail.
 
Just like you don't leave CDs lying around out in the open after you're done playing them, don't leave tapes out when not in use. Put em back in the boxes where they belong. :D
(Yeah, I still listen to CDs)
 
Zacharia said:
But when the song I'm working on is 20 minutes into the reel I wonder about leaving the tape on the machine instead of winding it off the take up reel and then fast forwarding back to the same spot when I get back to the room.
Click to expand...

Is that really a problem...?

I will often FW/RW at the beginning of a recording session just to move the tape and then repack the tape on the reel. It will run smoother.
Again...just leaving it to avoid a RW/FW isn't really much of a reason...but do as you think best.
 
Zacharia said:
Hi gang. I've wondered about this for awhile now and can't believe I've never thought to ask the members of this group. There are some people with deep knowledge of tape decks here and I'd like to know people's thoughts regarding keeping reels on decks when the machine is not in use. I've always taken them off at the end of a session with the thought that it saves stress on the hubs not having the weight of the tape sitting on them all of the time. (I have a tsr-8 and it stands straight up perpendicular to the floor.) But taking the tape on and off and ff-ing and rew-ing back to the session on the tape stresses other parts of the machine. I have a good running machine and want to take as good care of it as possible!

What do you folks think/do? Keep them on or take them off?
Click to expand...

I always took tape off after playing without rewinding , and stored it vertically. Empty reels could stay on okay. This was more to protect the tape than the hubs. Rewind before you play not afterwards and avoid storing the tape under stress of a fast rewind.
 
mr average said:
Rewind before you play not afterwards and avoid storing the tape under stress of a fast rewind.
Click to expand...

Right...tapes are stored tails-out...so with any new spool of tape, I never put it on the left/supply reel, but rather on the right/take-up reel...and then I RW to the supply reel. At the end of a session, I FW to the take-up reel (tails out), and when starting a session, I RW the tape back to the supply reel.

I'm just not sure what the question is anymore. To RW and leave it on the deck...to not RW and leave it on the deck...or the not RW and take it off the deck...? Like...is there a concern about leaving the tape or having to do another RW...?
You're not going to be hurting the machine doing either of those things...but you will be protecting the tape by FW to the take-up reel and then storing it the box.
I do this with my 1/4" tapes and my 2" tapes, which are about 10lbs each, so it's not a big deal to store them back in the box.
 
Standard BBC practice was always to store tail out because the rewind needed reduced print-through, important for speech, maybe not so for music.

Stress on the hub shaft/bearing? Not likely for a machine in regular use since the reel will stop in random angular positions so the weight will not be acting through the same point each time. There is dust to contend with but since OR machines are getting ever rarer and expensive I would chuck a sheet/poly bag over it anyway!

Dave.
 
Ah, the TSR-8 is supposed to be a bit peculiar about that, actually.
Supposedly it suffers from bent reel tables a lot because the mechanism was designed for the machine to sit on its back, and the cabinet was designed for it to stand vertically. Because of the cheap metal they used for the reel tables it is said to bend if you leave full reels of tape on the machine for a long time. Certainly all mine came (second-hand) with slightly bent shafts, and because of this I run the machine in a stand so it can sit on its back.
 
jpmorris said:
Ah, the TSR-8 is supposed to be a bit peculiar about that, actually.
Supposedly it suffers from bent reel tables a lot because the mechanism was designed for the machine to sit on its back, and the cabinet was designed for it to stand vertically. Because of the cheap metal they used for the reel tables it is said to bend if you leave full reels of tape on the machine for a long time. Certainly all mine came (second-hand) with slightly bent shafts, and because of this I run the machine in a stand so it can sit on its back.
Click to expand...

Ah, did not know that. Of course, almost all "pro" machines were and still are horizontal, it was only "domestication" that produced the upright stance. Then I guess nobody edits tape anymore these days!

Dave.
 
jpmorris said:
Ah, the TSR-8 is supposed to be a bit peculiar about that, actually.
Supposedly it suffers from bent reel tables a lot because the mechanism was designed for the machine to sit on its back, and the cabinet was designed for it to stand vertically. Because of the cheap metal they used for the reel tables it is said to bend if you leave full reels of tape on the machine for a long time. Certainly all mine came (second-hand) with slightly bent shafts, and because of this I run the machine in a stand so it can sit on its back.
Click to expand...

But how does this help once the reel tables/shafts are bent??
 
Sometimes you can loosen the set screws holding the reel table to the motor shaft and rotate it to minimize the wobble.
 
I can offer that there should be no issue leaving them on for a time. The main issue is to loosen the tension on the tape so that the roller arm does not cause a round deformation in that section of tape. Also when not in use, the deck and reels should be covered with a towel or dust cover. Tape just sitting there can take on dust and then when the deck is run it is being dragged into the heads and moved around the tape as the wind occurs. This will cause drop out on the tape even though the tape is fine. It is upsetting the tape to head contact. When working on a deck and using frequencies such as 15KHz and 20KHz for the calibration purpose it is very easily seen that contamination such as dust and shaved off oxide will affect these frequencies drastically. In repairing these decks I see more of the fine detail of the problems with test equipment and scope that a person with Audio will only see when the degradation is very bad. It is still there regardless. Keep in mind the width of these tracks and as tracks get smaller it gets even worse.
Reel motor shafts are a rare thing to be bent and usually if they are then it is caused by bad shipping practice. The reel table is the first area where destruction happens and they can crack. Then also the sub mount I have seen fractured. No so many reel table shafts are bent and not from a deck sitting. It takes a lot of energy to bend a shaft like that. The lock down hubs are also like the TZ612A not all that accurate or strong to hold the reel in place. The solution for 1/4" tape is to get hubs from the Nab-shop but he does not make them in 1/2" yet. I have found that the NAB-shop hubs do not allow the tape to wobble on the reel as the spring in it's center pushes out evenly rather than trying to do it by a clamp action. Clamping a 1/2" tape will require metal not plastic I am afraid. Maybe a spacer would allow the 1/4" ones to work- I would have to investigate that.
 
miroslav said:
Right...tapes are stored tails-out...so with any new spool of tape, I never put it on the left/supply reel, but rather on the right/take-up reel...and then I RW to the supply reel. At the end of a session, I FW to the take-up reel (tails out), and when starting a session, I RW the tape back to the supply reel.

I'm just not sure what the question is anymore. To RW and leave it on the deck...to not RW and leave it on the deck...or the not RW and take it off the deck...? Like...is there a concern about leaving the tape or having to do another RW...?
You're not going to be hurting the machine doing either of those things...but you will be protecting the tape by FW to the take-up reel and then storing it the box.
I do this with my 1/4" tapes and my 2" tapes, which are about 10lbs each, so it's not a big deal to store them back in the box.
Click to expand...
Storing a tape "tail out" also makes it less likely to give you ghost audio on the tape. Ghost audio is when you fast rewind a tape and the magnetic properties on the tape can copy with the speed of the rewind and deposit a ghost audio (magnetic print through) a few seconds before the audio on the tape will start. If a tape is rewound "tail in" and left for long term, you will sometimes hear the beginning of the tape a second or two before the actual start, because of this magnetic copy on the otherwise silent part of tape.

Winding a tape "tail out" won't cause this, as any magnetic ghost would be on the imprinted audio of the tape. Because a ghost isn't very loud, it won't be heard in any section that already had audio recorded on it. The ghost is very slight, but when you are expecting silence, it will be audible.

Also, when storing a tape long term, you shouldn't fast rewind it. This can cause the tape to stretch, curl on the edges and ultimately damage the magnetic imprint of the audio.
 
FingerzAndKeyz said:
Also, when storing a tape long term, you shouldn't fast rewind it. This can cause the tape to stretch, curl on the edges and ultimately damage the magnetic imprint of the audio.
Click to expand...

No...not really.
If it was going to stretch the tape and curl the edges, it would happen any time you did a fast-forward or rewind with the tape.

The only reason to slow wind it is because it packs the tape a little smoother...but it really depends on the machine and how true your reels are.
The better pro decks and reels will pack tape just fine at full rewind. I have the "library" rewind option on my deck, but the full speed rewind does as good a job, so I don't ever bother with library wind.
 
miroslav said:
No...not really.
If it was going to stretch the tape and curl the edges, it would happen any time you did a fast-forward or rewind with the tape.

The only reason to slow wind it is because it packs the tape a little smoother...but it really depends on the machine and how true your reels are.
The better pro decks and reels will pack tape just fine at full rewind. I have the "library" rewind option on my deck, but the full speed rewind does as good a job, so I don't ever bother with library wind.
Click to expand...

True, it has a lot to do with the quality of the tape and the machine. And I'm mostly thinking of 1/4 inch tape. And if you move the tape from machine to machine, if they aren't all adjusted the same, that can cause issues with the tape. I used to share recording with a friend and his machine was different than mine. Mine was TEAC, but I forget what his was.

And when I say curl the tape, I don't mean in a way you can physically see it, but it can end up being noticed in the audio. Granted, if you never share the tape, it's much less likely that any of this will happen. I also noticed this to a greater degree on cassette tapes. It seemed like mass produced decks weren't set up in the factory, and people didn't know this. The azimuth would be OK, as long as you didn't care to play the tape on another machine. After a few generations, the azimuth had to be right on, or the audio sounded pretty dull. I had an azimuth adjustment tape, but I would move the azimuth on one of my decks to get some tapes to sound better, because the machine the tape was recorded on wasn't correctly adjusted. Yes, this was back when I was just a kid and sharing recordings was more difficult than just emailing an mp3. I'm old.
 
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