Taking care of your sound...

[JuliánFernández]

Hi guys!
Last night, while I was watching some local band playing live on cable, and I kept thinking on how important is to take care of our sound (as drummers) on any kind of live recording/broadcasting...

I mean, we tune our drums over and over to find thar sweet spot, spends lots of money looking for that special sound that we have in our minds, and then an unexperienced engineer screw everything up not being able to translate our sound to the console...

So, I was thinking about taking care of the sound of my kit when I´m doing some live playing broadcasting... Is it possible/worthy?

Something simple like 4 mics into a 3124+, two tom mics into a little console and sending a stereo signal to the engineer... That way I can eq, compress, add some color or do whatever I want to do with my drums...

On the other hand I don´t any other drummer doing that (besides Mr. Weckl), so, what do you think?

Pros/Cons?

 

[Rimshot]

Wow! Great topic with just SO many variables.

Lots of times on the bigger venues, you are at the mercy of the staff sound engineer. Most of the time especially in a broadcast situation, they are really good at it. In the clubs and on some of the bigger stages, it's a very different story. I carry the sound equipment for the majority of the smaller clubs that I play at (including my two big Cerwin Vega cabs and stands) because most of the in-house cabs are under rated for the power and get screeching. I use my own power amps and 16 channel mixing board, I get great sound. Often the clubs want you to hook directly from my mixer into their system and early on, I foolishly agreed to that, and then I learned better. You get some youngster that can't keep their hands off of the mix and will screw up a good sound by the second song. They never give you an accurate mix to the stage monitors and half of the time entirely cut-out some of the other musicians.
I try to get there early, do a sound check and once it is set up, I'll have a friend that can keep an ear on the board and knows how to subtly adjust the mix when needed without screwing everything up. I keep good new and clean cables and I don't over-stress my equipment.
I've done a number of live radio broadcasts and some live TV (just local stuff, nothing big) but the sound engineers there are all union men and they know what they are doing. I may prefer slightly different EQ on the mix, but they never let you sound bad (unless of course you are bad and that's just not their fault). Most of the better sound engineers will talk to you before hand and ask you what you'd like to hear in the mix and they know their equipment .
When it comes to the smaller clubs, public access TV, community performances, it is best that the performing musicians handle their own sound rather than to trust it to amateurs.

 

[Elton Bear]

This is yet another argument towards triggering - while not everyone's cup of tea and I know styles vary as to whether you want such a produced sound, when everything's triggered you just plug your sound into the desk and Mr. Sound NewB plays with the faders... Easy!

I'd like to tell the engineer what EQ I normally like and trust them not to vary too much from the sound I'm looking for.

 

[xstatic]

As a FOH engineer, I see LOTS of issues with all of this. First, even with the same PA, different rooms sound different and need some different things. Second, premixing form stage, especially with a band that has drums almost never works out well. Triggers don't really make things better either. First, virtually every drumemr I have ever worked with that sent a stereo mix form triggers has either/or chosen bad sounding samples, or had them very improperly blanced, and almost always uses too much effects.

I do understand though that many clubs do have bad sound guys, but thats why you should find someone that can run your sound for you. In the long run its much easier that way. What I find is that most small clubs at least have PA's that are capable of much more than the idiot they hire to run it can do.

Here is a couple of things that I have noticed over the years. Keep in mind this is not directed at anyone here, but is just my experience as a FOH engineer that has mixed for more than 1000 bands of all sizes and quality form large nationla touring acts to small local bands....

First, when a band comes in with their own gear or wants to mix themselves, 9 out of 10 times the mix is horrid. Even a slack ass newbie at FOH could do better. Maybe only because they hear what is actually happening when the band plays at SET TIME, and once the room has filled with people and changed. Bands tend to play much differently at soundcheck than at actual set time. In fact, when sound checking, I can not even begin to tell you how many hundreds of times I will tell the drummer for instance to hit a drum as hard as he/she will ever hit it. Almost everytime I get the response "I am hitting it harder than I ever will hit it". The best part is that from the first note during their set almost everyone is already playing much louder than they said they ever will.

Second, a lot of bands tell you they want an even mix in the wedges, or the same mix as FOH. This is my favorite because I have NEVER had one of those bands yet ACTUALLY want that. You give it to them and the first thing they all do is start asking for more of this, less of that, and NONE of them actually want to hear the same thing.

Third, local and/or inexperienced bands seem to always want too much monitors. It is always easy to make them happy, and then all of a sudden they start asking for more of one thing and more of another. Finally they just tell you to turn the whole mix up because they can't hear anything. What do I do to solve this problem? Almost every time I just take us back to the original mix that they liked and lower the overall volume of the wedges and they all tend to smile and thank me thinking that I actually did what they asked.

In the end, there is only one real solution to making sure that your sound translates the way you want. That solution is to hire someone that knows how to give you what you want.

 

[hipskind]

Hey Julian,

Good question! And a very tough one for anyone, on either side of the FOH board, to answer. What I think (fwiw) is that generally, it's really not worth the trouble to bring the extra gear, soundcheck it and constantly tweak it from your position--which is behind the drums, not out front--AND try to play music at the same time.

But, it also depends on the situation. I, for instance, mic and mix my own drums in my weekend jobbing band. It's been set up this way for years, we have a great-sounding PA, and I know exactly what levels are needed. It's a very controlled situation. And, during the gig, various members of the band who might travel out front (we don't have a soundman; the keyboard player does this...don't ask!) will tell me if I need to bring anything up or down. My point: it CAN work if you work with an "act" that carries its own PA and sound engineer.

In Weckl's case, it works because he always gets (demands, I'm sure) boatloads of soundcheck time. And he travels with his own FOH engineer. I remember one time I was up in Whitewater, WI with Kimotion, just as a guest...Don Vincenze was playing drums! Soundcheck was brutal. The very amateur (college) sound people had absolutely no clue what they were doing. Out front it sounded terrible; they had no idea how to properly mix or EQ the drums, mics were in bad positions....Vinnie could've pitched a fit, as I'm sure Weck would've (no offense to Dave but it's true). Instead he looked at me and said, "Tom, whaddya think? Should I say something, or is it not really even worth it?" I said, "Honestly I don't think they'd even know what's wrong or how to fix it." He agreed and just let it go....totally hadled it like a pro! Played his sack off that evening, of course, and if the sound bothered him at all I could never tell. That taught me a VERY valuable lesson.

I totally agree with xstatic: as a musician you're at the mercy of the soundman, yet as a soundman you're also at the mercy of the musicians. It goes both ways.

 

[Rimshot]

I should have also mentioned......

I am also a sound man that has worked for many groups. People often remark that they didn't realize that the performances were amplified and I ask if they had any trouble hearing any of the musicians and they'd say no that it was clear as day. That's when I know I have done well.
I am also mostly performing with acoustic instruments and we don't perform loud and heavy R&R. For the past decade I've been playing percussion for belly dance and Middle-Eastern, Greek and Armenian bands. It's a slightly different dynamic than it was for the years that I was a gigging jazz and blues drummer.

 

[JuliánFernández]

Thanks guys, great answers!

Tom, I enjoyed your Mr. C history... I guess, I´ll keep looking for the sound O have on my head on the studio, and I´ll try find someone to rely on when I have certain gigs...

 

[mikeh]

I always carry my own mics and mixer - which allows me to send a mono or stereo signal to whatever PA (although I rarely need to send a stereo signal). Most bands I work with have their own PA (in almost all cases the PA is decent) and often mix from stage - so all I'm really doing is sending a mono signal of the drum shells (maybe the hi-hat, but rarely cymbals) to the PA, allowing the drums to get a little boost in the mix (allowing for a more balanced band mix). I use some pads to trigger various percussion sounds - and it often sound terrible if that comes though the PA and the drums don't - so I try to mic the whole kit.

I am confident that my technique and experiance allows my playing to be even enough that a FOH guy does't have to does much with faders, other than a general mono boost - to blend with the other instruments.

I agree that at most large venues (or broadcast situations) the drummer is at the mercy of the FOH engineer (although I have on occasion convinced the FOH guy to simply accept my mono or stereo signal). Fortunately, in most of those situations the FOH guy and the equipment tends to be pretty good. Naturally, I've played some very small venues - in which case I don't run drum mics at all (or maybe just a kick to the mains).

In my case I normally close mic the snare, kick and 4 toms with one channel for the electonics (total of 7 channels). I use a small 8 channel passive mixer which I set up on an extra snare stand (the snare basket works perfect for this) right next to my hi-hat. I don't bother with compression, effects or anything else. I tune my drums well, they sound good and all I need is a little presence in the PA.

I personally would always want to control my own drum mix - and I would recommend it to any drummer (at least any drummer willing to spend the money and time).