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scottn5388
New member
Do most of you use Synthesiser Keyboards or Controller Keyboards?
-Scott
-Scott
Stealthtech
LOGIC ABUSER
Depends on what you want to do. A synth has built in sounds where as a controller only transmits data.
Krakit
Rzzzzz!
Except for vintage synths (where there is little choice), I'll always opt for the module version over the full, keyboard intergrated version of a synth.
I use a midi patch bay and several controllers (both weighted 88's and flimsy action 25, 49, 61 and 88).
My stacks are already Emerson-esqu without adding more keyboards to the equation.
Rack gear is smaller, usually cheaper and just as good (or better) than the keyboard included counterpart.
Plus, I get to choose the action and amount of keys I want to utilize with each sound. I get the best of all possible worlds this way as opposed to being "locked in" by the manufacturer's choice in keys.
My $32.22 take on the question.
Carl
I use a midi patch bay and several controllers (both weighted 88's and flimsy action 25, 49, 61 and 88).
My stacks are already Emerson-esqu without adding more keyboards to the equation.
Rack gear is smaller, usually cheaper and just as good (or better) than the keyboard included counterpart.
Plus, I get to choose the action and amount of keys I want to utilize with each sound. I get the best of all possible worlds this way as opposed to being "locked in" by the manufacturer's choice in keys.
My $32.22 take on the question.
Carl
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brzilian
New member
Umm, I would be careful going the all module route. Not all synths respond to velocity data in the same way. Some Korg/Roland combinations don't work too well just because of that.
Krakit
Rzzzzz!
I dunno about that. I haven't had any problems. I certainly haven't had any reasons to opt for the keyboard equipped synth (and add yet another tier to my four stands) because of any velocity descrepencies.
Carl
Carl
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brzilian
New member
Another example would be my DX7. It cannot transmit any velocity data higher than 100. Once I connect it to my Roland XP-30, the sound completely changes on the DX7 when triggered from the Roland since it can transmit the full 0-127 range.
Krakit
Rzzzzz!
I think the confusion here is that you are recommending a synth to control another synth.
I don't do that (my dedicated keyboard synths control themselves locally only).
I use midi controller keyboards (produce no sounds of their own) to play my modules only (not other keyboards).
I have never had any trouble with this method.
I don't use my JX-8P (for example) to control my DX-100. They have their own keys.
Actually, this brings me back to my point about having the best of both worlds via contorller/module combinations.
I HATE the micro keyboard on my DX-100, but that is what's connected to the unit, so I live with it.
However, with my Alesis QSR, I can use my RD-100 (I know, this has internal sounds, but it makes a wonderful controller) for 88 key weighted action, or maybe my Evolution 49 key controller for a more synthlike action complete with mod and pitch wheels.
Carl
I don't do that (my dedicated keyboard synths control themselves locally only).
I use midi controller keyboards (produce no sounds of their own) to play my modules only (not other keyboards).
I have never had any trouble with this method.
I don't use my JX-8P (for example) to control my DX-100. They have their own keys.
Actually, this brings me back to my point about having the best of both worlds via contorller/module combinations.
I HATE the micro keyboard on my DX-100, but that is what's connected to the unit, so I live with it.
However, with my Alesis QSR, I can use my RD-100 (I know, this has internal sounds, but it makes a wonderful controller) for 88 key weighted action, or maybe my Evolution 49 key controller for a more synthlike action complete with mod and pitch wheels.
Carl
laj35
New member
The more I learn about synths/keyboards the more I am coming to agree with Krakit's opinions. I figure why be limited to the amount of keys the manufacturer has designated when I could get say the Evolution MK249C which not only has sufficient keys for me but 12 assignable knobs so I can tweak to my heart's delight.
Laj
Laj
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brzilian
New member
laj35 said:
That is a dangerous conclusion to come to, especially when dealing with vintage gear. Back in the 80's and 90's when electronics and memory prices were higher, manufacturers did everything possible to use these resources efficiently in their products. In the case of sample playback synths that meant only enough multi-sample points in a sound to fit the keyboard. So, chances were, if the keyboard had 61 keys, your sounds would sound fine, but as soon as you tried playing the full 88 note range, you got all types of sound artifacts such as the chipmunk effect or very obvious points along the keyboard where the sound quality changed dramatically.
I'm not saying that you should never use a controller keyboard, but there are times when its probably not the best thing to use either.
MIDI can be a pretty annoyingly complicated thing at times and can cause more trouble that it needs to. Lately, I have actually wanted to go back to the all in one workstation type synth. I have been playing synths for about 14 years now and I feel that trying to use the computer in the picture has become more of a distraction and takes away from what I am really here to do - make music.
Roel
That SMART guy.
brzilian said:
Hehe... I have implemented the midi standard in a homemade midi-cv convertor. It's actually very simple and never complicated. Getting your synth to send and listen to the right midi channels etc can be complicated, but that's just the complexity of the menu's and possibilities of your equipement.
I use an A90, with expansion, and hook up a sampler and a sequencer. Occasionally I'll put an analog synth on top of it. But mostly the A90 on it's own is enough. Maybe someday I'll put another controller on it to control my modular -if I ever finish building it-, but most likely I'll just use the A90 for that too. Less gear to carry and setup...
If I become rich all of a sudden and can afford one of those nice analog modeling synths, I'll buy a keyboard version, just because I'd want to have the knobs near anyway, don't feel like reaching for my rack in the middle of a solo... If I get even more money, and buy more than 1 of those fancy things, I'd get them in rack. No need to carry 3 or more different keyboards. I have enough trouble settings it up in time allready. (Our gigs are small, occasionally you have to be able to setup all yer gear in about 30 minutes...)
M
Mossberg
New member
For some reason I hate Keyboards
Most of them have shit I'll never use, like the onboard sequencer, YUCK! That's what I have Cubase and an MPC2000 for.
All I buy is rack module versions of the keyboards and use a studio logic master controller keyboard.
Most of them have shit I'll never use, like the onboard sequencer, YUCK! That's what I have Cubase and an MPC2000 for.
All I buy is rack module versions of the keyboards and use a studio logic master controller keyboard.
Krakit
Rzzzzz!
With all due respect, Brazil
it seems like a no brainer to me. The question isn't do you use keyboards with controllers hooked up to them. It's do you use synths or controllers (implying a controller/module combo).
By definition, modules are designed to be used with midi controllers.
So let's boil the argument down to it's essence.
Do you recommend a keyboard for every synth engine or a collection of synth modules connected to midi controllers?
I think that modules and controllers makes the most sense all around as opposed to buying Nords with keys, Waldorfs with keys, Yamahas with keys, Rolands with keys, Korgs with keys etc.
I have enough keyboards, I do not need any more.
Most every dedicated keyboard synth on the market today has a keyless module counterpart.
Why spend extra money to be limited to a single often crappy interface? Buy the guts and keyboard seperate.
No one is trying to suggest hooking up DX-7's and DW 800's to Oxygen 8 controllers.
Carl
it seems like a no brainer to me. The question isn't do you use keyboards with controllers hooked up to them. It's do you use synths or controllers (implying a controller/module combo).
By definition, modules are designed to be used with midi controllers.
So let's boil the argument down to it's essence.
Do you recommend a keyboard for every synth engine or a collection of synth modules connected to midi controllers?
I think that modules and controllers makes the most sense all around as opposed to buying Nords with keys, Waldorfs with keys, Yamahas with keys, Rolands with keys, Korgs with keys etc.
I have enough keyboards, I do not need any more.
Most every dedicated keyboard synth on the market today has a keyless module counterpart.
Why spend extra money to be limited to a single often crappy interface? Buy the guts and keyboard seperate.
No one is trying to suggest hooking up DX-7's and DW 800's to Oxygen 8 controllers.
Carl
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brzilian
New member
Re: With all due respect, Brazil
Each to his own I guess, I have never really liked modules. Once you separate the tone generator from the controller and get everything talking with MIDI, it gets more complicated than I care for. I rather spend time playing music than tweaking MIDI TX/RX or LOCAL ON-OFF settings.
I own a M1r - my only module, and its the piece of gear that gets the least amount of use in my whole setup.
Krakit said:
Each to his own I guess, I have never really liked modules. Once you separate the tone generator from the controller and get everything talking with MIDI, it gets more complicated than I care for. I rather spend time playing music than tweaking MIDI TX/RX or LOCAL ON-OFF settings.
I own a M1r - my only module, and its the piece of gear that gets the least amount of use in my whole setup.
Trak
New member
Personally I like to have the keyboard rather than the module. I'll get a module only if it has extra patch banks for example, that the keyboard doesn't. (Trinity-Rack). Barring any differences in the sound engine I'll almost always go for the keyboard.
Krakit
Rzzzzz!
Just curious Trak. Why would you pay extra to have a dedicated keyboard attached to the synth engine?
It's bulkier, requires more expensive physical support (stands and extra tiers) and kind of locks you in to the manufacturers keyboard action, pitch and mod wheels (or lack thereof).
I don't see the plus side to this.
Carl
It's bulkier, requires more expensive physical support (stands and extra tiers) and kind of locks you in to the manufacturers keyboard action, pitch and mod wheels (or lack thereof).
I don't see the plus side to this.
Carl
M
Mossberg
New member
Me neither. It seems like your paying more money for more hassle. A rack version of the synth and a GOOD controller keyboard is all you should need. Unless you are going for wow factor in your setup by having all those keys. Or if you perform live or something.
Krakit
Rzzzzz!
Especially if you play live, go modules!
It was live play that made me wake up to modules in the first place.
I carry a small rack onto the stage (weighs about 30lbs tops and that includes mixer and rack effects) instead of 2 ADDITIONAL keyboards.
Not that I don't have enough keyboards!
I still set up two Ulitmate Support A frames (one two tier the other three), a double tiered table type stand and a Z shaped single tier stand.
As you can see, there's no point adding more stands (and keyboards) to my rig.
I have an E-Mu lauchpad (recently bought still to be tested in performace) that is for live tweaking of MIDI paramters.
Think of the money that I save in gig bags alone.
Plus MIDI CONTROLLERS WEIGHT A HELL OF A LOT LESS THAN ALL IN ONE SYNTHS!!!!
So do modules for that matter.
MIDI is about as simple to use as it is powerful. I have a Midiman 3/8 Thru box that I use to change keyboard assignments on the fly. It let's me switch Controller/Module combinations at the flick of a switch. There was no steep learning curve. If you can grasp "Midi-In", "Midi-Out" and "Midi-Thru", you can set yourself up, no problem.
Before the days of MIDI, I had to drag heavy dedicated keyboards from show to show. I hated some of the keyboard actions that I was saddled with, but there wasn't any choice about that if you wanted the sounds, you had to put up with actions that were too light, sticky or stiff.
BTW, if anyone knows weather or not I can dump my JX-8P patches into a peice of Roland rackmount gear, LMK what unit to look for ASAP!
Carl
It was live play that made me wake up to modules in the first place.
I carry a small rack onto the stage (weighs about 30lbs tops and that includes mixer and rack effects) instead of 2 ADDITIONAL keyboards.
Not that I don't have enough keyboards!
I still set up two Ulitmate Support A frames (one two tier the other three), a double tiered table type stand and a Z shaped single tier stand.
As you can see, there's no point adding more stands (and keyboards) to my rig.
I have an E-Mu lauchpad (recently bought still to be tested in performace) that is for live tweaking of MIDI paramters.
Think of the money that I save in gig bags alone.
Plus MIDI CONTROLLERS WEIGHT A HELL OF A LOT LESS THAN ALL IN ONE SYNTHS!!!!
So do modules for that matter.
MIDI is about as simple to use as it is powerful. I have a Midiman 3/8 Thru box that I use to change keyboard assignments on the fly. It let's me switch Controller/Module combinations at the flick of a switch. There was no steep learning curve. If you can grasp "Midi-In", "Midi-Out" and "Midi-Thru", you can set yourself up, no problem.
Before the days of MIDI, I had to drag heavy dedicated keyboards from show to show. I hated some of the keyboard actions that I was saddled with, but there wasn't any choice about that if you wanted the sounds, you had to put up with actions that were too light, sticky or stiff.
BTW, if anyone knows weather or not I can dump my JX-8P patches into a peice of Roland rackmount gear, LMK what unit to look for ASAP!
Carl
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brzilian
New member
Like I said, each to his own. I don't do much live playing so how much the gear weighs is really irrelevant to me since I don't lug it around much. As far as price goes, most of the time the difference is only a couple hundred dollars. If it were half price, that would be another story...
I did own a M1 years ago and thought it would be good to just pick up the M1r since I already had other synths. Right about now I am wishing I still had the M1 over the rackmount version. Unless you are mounting your rack at just the right height (around eye level) you are sacrificing too much as far as usability. You have to bend over or contort yourself to see the units display whereas with the keyboard version, its right there staring up at you about the keyboard. I make a BIG deal out of this since I am an Industrial Designer and one of my foremost concerns in my work is ergonomics.
Regarding the JX-8P, wouldn't the rack version be the MKS-70? After all, the JX-10 was two 8's put in a single box and the MKS-70 is the rack version of the JX-10.
I did own a M1 years ago and thought it would be good to just pick up the M1r since I already had other synths. Right about now I am wishing I still had the M1 over the rackmount version. Unless you are mounting your rack at just the right height (around eye level) you are sacrificing too much as far as usability. You have to bend over or contort yourself to see the units display whereas with the keyboard version, its right there staring up at you about the keyboard. I make a BIG deal out of this since I am an Industrial Designer and one of my foremost concerns in my work is ergonomics.
Regarding the JX-8P, wouldn't the rack version be the MKS-70? After all, the JX-10 was two 8's put in a single box and the MKS-70 is the rack version of the JX-10.
Trak
New member
Krakit said:
I simply prefer to have the actual keyboard as opposed to the module. I feel that each keyboard has it's own character, the feel of the keys, the pitch bend, and each keyboard has different controllers... some have ribbon strips some have knobs etc... So for each project I try to use a different keyboard from the last one... that way I end up with something completely different from the last project.