Brad
New member
Tex and I were posting at the same time.
Yeah, what Tex said...
Yeah, what Tex said...
Brad
New member
Hey Mike,
I'd also like to recommend a book called Syncronization From Reel to Reel by Jeff Rona. It has a lot of good information about all kinds of audio/video sync. I bought one even after I thought I had a pretty decent idea of what I was doing, and I think it is very helpful.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...9512067/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-2389388-4650562
I'd also like to recommend a book called Syncronization From Reel to Reel by Jeff Rona. It has a lot of good information about all kinds of audio/video sync. I bought one even after I thought I had a pretty decent idea of what I was doing, and I think it is very helpful.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...9512067/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-2389388-4650562
pisces7378
New member
Brad,
That is exactly what I am talking about doing. I am not intersted in editing digital video. And I am not interested in doing anything with rolls of of film. I am talking about... some independent film school kids that have no ear for music or no idea about how to add a sound track to their film... coming to me with their edited film. Then I add stock library sound effects, like traffic noise in the city, as well as using pre-written music like the latest REM single (I know there is a ton of legal issues there) as well as actually scoring some original music for the film.
Then I will have to have obviously have some sort of film machine with a monitor (A normal television set with a VCR) then I will need some kind of DAT that will let me hand the film kid back his finished soundtrack on DAT rather than a CD-R (or would the CD be better?) Then he can worry about getting the two synched together and developed onto film rolls for the cinema himself.
Now I have Logic Audio Platinum for recording audio. How would this software fit into the above scenerio?
If I bought Adobe Premiere how would that fit into my scenerio? Is it just for editing digital video (which I am not really talking about here)? Or is it centered around adding sound tracks?
Maybe I should just go to the Adobe website and read as much as possible about that.
Anyway thanks a fucking ton guys. You have been great. This has been a legendary thread.
Mike
That is exactly what I am talking about doing. I am not intersted in editing digital video. And I am not interested in doing anything with rolls of of film. I am talking about... some independent film school kids that have no ear for music or no idea about how to add a sound track to their film... coming to me with their edited film. Then I add stock library sound effects, like traffic noise in the city, as well as using pre-written music like the latest REM single (I know there is a ton of legal issues there) as well as actually scoring some original music for the film.
Then I will have to have obviously have some sort of film machine with a monitor (A normal television set with a VCR) then I will need some kind of DAT that will let me hand the film kid back his finished soundtrack on DAT rather than a CD-R (or would the CD be better?) Then he can worry about getting the two synched together and developed onto film rolls for the cinema himself.
Now I have Logic Audio Platinum for recording audio. How would this software fit into the above scenerio?
If I bought Adobe Premiere how would that fit into my scenerio? Is it just for editing digital video (which I am not really talking about here)? Or is it centered around adding sound tracks?
Maybe I should just go to the Adobe website and read as much as possible about that.
Anyway thanks a fucking ton guys. You have been great. This has been a legendary thread.
Mike
JR#97
New member
Just a note... I think Tex meant Betacam SP.... Beta and Betacam are not the same thing. Hell, Betacam and Betacam SP aren't the same thing... anywhoo
I suggested Adobe Premiere because it is a very common video program. If you're working with indie film makers, you'll probably run into a lot of questions about how to lay audio to their video... you don't need to know the video ins and outs per se of Premiere, but it's good to know what it can and can't do and how to get your stuff into Premiere or any other video system. Doing music is one thing... doing sound effects/dialog is another... a lot of it really depends on how much these film kids are doing and how much they're asking you to do. Even though you wouldn't have to deal with film, there are some considerations you need to factor in when dealing with audio for film. Film and video are at different rates and you'll need to compensate. There was an excellent article in Electronic Musician a few years back. You might be able to find it in their archives at their website.
As far as the DAT vs CD issue goes, it depends on what the film maker is doing. If you go DAT, you might as well go all the way and go timecode DAT. The Panasonic, ummm... model number escapes me at the moment... (3700 or 3800???) is one of the standard machines. If you go CD, I'm guessing you're looking at sound files instead of an audio CD?
I"m not too familiar Emagic (il-)Logic
Does it sync to video? Most of the high end audio programs do these days. Vegas Audio and Nuendo will even write to a video a file, whereas most others will sync to one, but not write to one.
A note about offline/online editing.... online is expensive... 6 figures easily expensive like Tex said. However, look hard enough and you can find editing bays/rooms that will rent and for not as much as you'd think. Learning online video is a good backbone because it can all be applied to offline. Plus, it really helps to know the lingo, formats, etc. etc. If you're seriously thinking about doing post work, knowing as much as you can about video will give you the edge. Hell, just knowing the different video formats will give you an edge... Betacam SP, D2, 1", 3/4" Umatic, VHS, SVHS, Hi8, DVcam, not to mention knowing about black sync, what a TBC does, etc etc etc...... Having been an audio/video mastering engineer for 10 years, I can tell you that it really isn't as complicated as it might sound.
I suggested Adobe Premiere because it is a very common video program. If you're working with indie film makers, you'll probably run into a lot of questions about how to lay audio to their video... you don't need to know the video ins and outs per se of Premiere, but it's good to know what it can and can't do and how to get your stuff into Premiere or any other video system. Doing music is one thing... doing sound effects/dialog is another... a lot of it really depends on how much these film kids are doing and how much they're asking you to do. Even though you wouldn't have to deal with film, there are some considerations you need to factor in when dealing with audio for film. Film and video are at different rates and you'll need to compensate. There was an excellent article in Electronic Musician a few years back. You might be able to find it in their archives at their website.
As far as the DAT vs CD issue goes, it depends on what the film maker is doing. If you go DAT, you might as well go all the way and go timecode DAT. The Panasonic, ummm... model number escapes me at the moment... (3700 or 3800???) is one of the standard machines. If you go CD, I'm guessing you're looking at sound files instead of an audio CD?
I"m not too familiar Emagic (il-)Logic
Does it sync to video? Most of the high end audio programs do these days. Vegas Audio and Nuendo will even write to a video a file, whereas most others will sync to one, but not write to one. A note about offline/online editing.... online is expensive... 6 figures easily expensive like Tex said. However, look hard enough and you can find editing bays/rooms that will rent and for not as much as you'd think. Learning online video is a good backbone because it can all be applied to offline. Plus, it really helps to know the lingo, formats, etc. etc. If you're seriously thinking about doing post work, knowing as much as you can about video will give you the edge. Hell, just knowing the different video formats will give you an edge... Betacam SP, D2, 1", 3/4" Umatic, VHS, SVHS, Hi8, DVcam, not to mention knowing about black sync, what a TBC does, etc etc etc...... Having been an audio/video mastering engineer for 10 years, I can tell you that it really isn't as complicated as it might sound.
Brad
New member
Okay Mike, here is what I suggest - and these are only my suggestions, not rules of thumb or anything.
Logic is good - will sync to incoming SMPTE/MTC - look that up in the manual, I don't have Logic, so I don't know HOW to do it, but I know it does do it.
Now, with indie and student filmakers especially, you never know what they are going to be using to shoot their film, maybe a DV camera, maybe 35mm - depends on how rich the kids parents are. but it is pretty acceptable that a composer ask the director/producer for a work tape on VHS - you will want to specify which channel you want striped with SMPTE (or other time code) and the other audio channel should have (but not always) production sound (dialog, natural sound picked up by location sound). Also, it is good to request a screen burn of the timecode - that should go without saying, but you never know. It is my understanding that a lot of times, work tapes will be in 3/4 in. Beta format. These, I believe, have 3 audio tracks - 2 for stereo audio and one for the timecode. I can't afford a Beta deck yet, so I don't have all the details. Still, I think it is okay to ask for a VHS copy to work from even if they are only offering Beta.
I have a video editing program (Vegas Video 3.0) but I only use that to make credits and to edit my demo video reel (something you might consider, though audio demos are still the norm, I think). Premiere will work for that as well.
Also, most of the time - sound design and effects are usually done by another person who has expertise in that field - but I know what you mean because I offer SFX services as well as music. If you do that, be prepared to make two audio masters, one with sound effects, and one with music, not one master with both. Most of the time, if the director is wanting to use outside music (your example: REM tune) that will probably appear on the work tape in the temp audio track (if there is one) to let you know where it comes in and goes out. This is most likely something that the post house will do. You probably won't insert that music yourself. Keep in mind, these kids in film school are being taught by the book and probably have this all worked out already - since orginal score is usually the LAST thing to do to a film.
To start off, you need a video monitor or TV (the bigger the better, you will see why when you start doing it), a stereo VCR - try to get one with single frame advance and a jog wheel. Toshiba makes an affordable consumer model with those features (+/- $120) but if you can afford it, you might want a pro or semi-pro deck. You will need a MIDI interface that can read incoming SMPTE, regenerate it and feed it to your computer as MTC (I recommend the MOTU Micro Express or it's big brother).
A soundcard on your puter so you can get your audio out to an external mastering deck - DAT, CD-R, etc. Consider also getting a TASCAM DA-x8 multi track machine at some point (you will need a multi channel feed from your sound card for this one) so you can do "stem" masters - i.e. melody on track 1 & 2, pads on 3 & 4, percussion on 5 & 6, etc. (I am not being pro-TASCAM over ADAT, I just know that just about every post house has DA-x8's - it is kind of the standard) This kind of sucks, because it gives the post guys the ability to cut or boost seperate parts of your music, but it is the director's movie, so you can't be too much of a bitch about it. It is good in some cases, because if you give them a stereo master, the director may want to emphasize something in the SFX track - he may cut your entire mix - with stems, they can leave the melody strong and cut the pads, for example.
Don't expect these student film makers to just give you a work tape and say "Go for it, dude!" Although wet behind the ears, even beginners usually have an idea how they want the music to go. You may get some that don't have a clue and give you full reign, but most of the time (you will find out in your first spotting session and subsequent meetings) that they want something a certain way. Just wanted you to be prepared for this. Some of the better university film programs even have a required class called "Directing the Composer" so be prepared for someone TELLING you how they think the music should go.
But, first things first - get the gear you need. I was kind of all over the place with this post and probably left some stuff out. TexRoadKill gave you and excellent "what you need to get started" list a few posts back - I agree with him all the way.
Hope that helps.
Brad
Logic is good - will sync to incoming SMPTE/MTC - look that up in the manual, I don't have Logic, so I don't know HOW to do it, but I know it does do it.
Now, with indie and student filmakers especially, you never know what they are going to be using to shoot their film, maybe a DV camera, maybe 35mm - depends on how rich the kids parents are.
but it is pretty acceptable that a composer ask the director/producer for a work tape on VHS - you will want to specify which channel you want striped with SMPTE (or other time code) and the other audio channel should have (but not always) production sound (dialog, natural sound picked up by location sound). Also, it is good to request a screen burn of the timecode - that should go without saying, but you never know. It is my understanding that a lot of times, work tapes will be in 3/4 in. Beta format. These, I believe, have 3 audio tracks - 2 for stereo audio and one for the timecode. I can't afford a Beta deck yet, so I don't have all the details. Still, I think it is okay to ask for a VHS copy to work from even if they are only offering Beta.I have a video editing program (Vegas Video 3.0) but I only use that to make credits and to edit my demo video reel (something you might consider, though audio demos are still the norm, I think). Premiere will work for that as well.
Also, most of the time - sound design and effects are usually done by another person who has expertise in that field - but I know what you mean because I offer SFX services as well as music. If you do that, be prepared to make two audio masters, one with sound effects, and one with music, not one master with both. Most of the time, if the director is wanting to use outside music (your example: REM tune) that will probably appear on the work tape in the temp audio track (if there is one) to let you know where it comes in and goes out. This is most likely something that the post house will do. You probably won't insert that music yourself. Keep in mind, these kids in film school are being taught by the book and probably have this all worked out already - since orginal score is usually the LAST thing to do to a film.
To start off, you need a video monitor or TV (the bigger the better, you will see why when you start doing it), a stereo VCR - try to get one with single frame advance and a jog wheel. Toshiba makes an affordable consumer model with those features (+/- $120) but if you can afford it, you might want a pro or semi-pro deck. You will need a MIDI interface that can read incoming SMPTE, regenerate it and feed it to your computer as MTC (I recommend the MOTU Micro Express or it's big brother).
A soundcard on your puter so you can get your audio out to an external mastering deck - DAT, CD-R, etc. Consider also getting a TASCAM DA-x8 multi track machine at some point (you will need a multi channel feed from your sound card for this one) so you can do "stem" masters - i.e. melody on track 1 & 2, pads on 3 & 4, percussion on 5 & 6, etc. (I am not being pro-TASCAM over ADAT, I just know that just about every post house has DA-x8's - it is kind of the standard) This kind of sucks, because it gives the post guys the ability to cut or boost seperate parts of your music, but it is the director's movie, so you can't be too much of a bitch about it. It is good in some cases, because if you give them a stereo master, the director may want to emphasize something in the SFX track - he may cut your entire mix - with stems, they can leave the melody strong and cut the pads, for example.
Don't expect these student film makers to just give you a work tape and say "Go for it, dude!" Although wet behind the ears, even beginners usually have an idea how they want the music to go. You may get some that don't have a clue and give you full reign, but most of the time (you will find out in your first spotting session and subsequent meetings) that they want something a certain way. Just wanted you to be prepared for this. Some of the better university film programs even have a required class called "Directing the Composer" so be prepared for someone TELLING you how they think the music should go.
But, first things first - get the gear you need. I was kind of all over the place with this post and probably left some stuff out. TexRoadKill gave you and excellent "what you need to get started" list a few posts back - I agree with him all the way.
Hope that helps.
Brad
TexRoadkill
Audio Bum
Final format will depend on the individual film maker. In the late 80's I was giving them casette because the film audio was mastered to the 16mm optical track which sounds like absolute shit anyway.
DAT or CD would be fine for music but if you are doing sync sound effects you will need some type of SMPTE reference on the tape. ADAT is probably the best format for that. It also gives them more flexibility if you put the music and effects synced on different tracks so the mixer can do his job.
If you want to do the final mix you would probably want a SMPTE DAT like Brad suggested or ADAT will probably work also. Eventually it will be dubbed to mag if they are doing a film cut and if it is just video they will lay it over the final video master.
The vast majority of student films are cut by hand since that is part of the learning process. You will most likely just give them non synced sound effects and music on CD that they will transfer to mag and cut by hand.
But in student film making there are no rules and whatever works for the budget is usually the determining factor.
DAT or CD would be fine for music but if you are doing sync sound effects you will need some type of SMPTE reference on the tape. ADAT is probably the best format for that. It also gives them more flexibility if you put the music and effects synced on different tracks so the mixer can do his job.
If you want to do the final mix you would probably want a SMPTE DAT like Brad suggested or ADAT will probably work also. Eventually it will be dubbed to mag if they are doing a film cut and if it is just video they will lay it over the final video master.
The vast majority of student films are cut by hand since that is part of the learning process. You will most likely just give them non synced sound effects and music on CD that they will transfer to mag and cut by hand.
But in student film making there are no rules and whatever works for the budget is usually the determining factor.
JR#97
New member
Brad said:
Not trying to be anal, just clarifying "Beta":
Beta is the old Sony format that lost to VHS... it's still popular in South America. It's similar to VHS and is actually a little better quality.
3/4" is Umatic and only offers 2 channels + timecode. It's not used a whole lot. BetaSP or Betacam SP is 1/2" and offers 4 channels plus time code (2 Hi-fi, 2 linear... some machines will have outs for all 4 that can be monitored at the same time).
Click here for a list of commonly used video formats:
http://www.dvgear.com/videoformats.html
TexRoadkill
Audio Bum
Beta and Betacam are the same format. BetacamSP is higher quality and has the 4 audio tracks. I knew a news cameraman when I was an intern who always took home tapes to use on his home beta deck. I havent seen a home beta deck in 15yrs so I cant confirm it but that was my understanding.
3/4" is definately a dinosaur and Betacam SP replaced it for most purposes. Mini DV is making a lot of headway and will most likely replace BetaSP for most remote ENG shoots.
3/4" is definately a dinosaur and Betacam SP replaced it for most purposes. Mini DV is making a lot of headway and will most likely replace BetaSP for most remote ENG shoots.
Brad
New member
Thanks for the clarification guys - I am more than willing to admit that I haven't a clue about Beta, Betacam or BetacamSP.
I am just out of date. When I first wanted to get into film scoring, the 3/4 Umatic deally-bob was the way to go. But that was years ago, and I temporarily gave up on my dream and didn't keep up with the technology on the video end. Now I am getting back into film scoring and I actually have seen the Umatic still mentioned in texts and I know a few "working" composers who still have a Umatic deck in their studios (just in case, I guess). I was just figuring it was still a commonly used piece of gear.
For some reason, I thought the Umatic machine was a form of Beta. Must've been all the booze...
Or I was confused by the fact that both "upgraded" by adding "SP" to their name. Thanks for that link, JR#97.
My bad
Brad
I am just out of date. When I first wanted to get into film scoring, the 3/4 Umatic deally-bob was the way to go. But that was years ago, and I temporarily gave up on my dream and didn't keep up with the technology on the video end. Now I am getting back into film scoring and I actually have seen the Umatic still mentioned in texts and I know a few "working" composers who still have a Umatic deck in their studios (just in case, I guess). I was just figuring it was still a commonly used piece of gear.
For some reason, I thought the Umatic machine was a form of Beta. Must've been all the booze...
Or I was confused by the fact that both "upgraded" by adding "SP" to their name. Thanks for that link, JR#97.
My bad
Brad
Last edited:
JR#97
New member
TexRoadkill said:
Uh... Beta and Betacam are not the same format. Beta and Beta Hi-fi are the same format. Actually, Beta and Beta Hi-fi are Betamax. Betacam and BetacamSP (BetaSP) are the same format. I was an audio/video mastering engineer for almost 10 years... one of our biggest clients was an English for Spanish Education company that we duplicated Beta(max) tapes for... I'm not talking out of my ass here... seriously
I wouldn't be so anal about it, but people commonly make the indistinction all the time and it can cost time/money and maybe a little emberassment. Especially for a new guy trying to get into the audio for video business. Just trying to helpful. The tell tale sign will be the format symbol on the tape. Here's a link:http://www.high-techproductions.com/formats.htm
I remember watching my old video boss, who was audio oblivious, try and drop a 3/4" Umatic tape in one of our Umatic players.... The screetch that came across our audio monitors almost deafend us... it was a Sony PCM 1630 Umatic tape... the old digital audio tape format... he kept trying to tell me that the 1630 was the length in meters or something... but then again, he was the same guy who thought a compressor would change time compress audio content... lol
JR#97
New member
oK, one more clarification.... betacam tapes can be used with betamax players as long as the tape is the feric and not the metal formula.... and the smaller 30 min. size is used. i just remembered that... my bad to all of those whom i may have pissed off!!!