Super Synth?

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Xavier

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Okay, so im a little unsure of myself. I need some advice on a synth to purchase. Im looking for the best. I like to make dreamy, melting sounds which progress smoothly. I've also considered buying a controller and a synth rack instead, but alot of me wants those keys right there. Does anyone have an experienced opinion on the best synth to purchase and if it would just be more efficient to get the rack of that model?

What do you all think about the M-Audio ProKeys 88 as a controller. Or even the StudioLogic VMK-188. I plan on plugging a motif es rack, triton rack, and perhaps even a v-synth rack into it. How do you think that would work? i need the best!!!
 
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For synths, take your pick since there is a mess of stuff out there. Korg Oasys, V synth, DSI Poly Evolver Keybord, Nord Lead, Alesis Andromeda, Alesis Ion, Virus TI, Hartmann Neuron (DROOL), Moog Voyager. Motif/triton/phantom are nice but all sound the same and none of them really has any character IMHO. Pretty much all the above have rack versions but some also have tons of controls that you want(A6, PEK, Virus, Moog) but the ones that are all menu based would be well served with a controller and just the rack


For controllers I am all about the novation remote. Easy to program, decent action, laid out brilliantly and you can get it up to 61 keys.

If you want weighted, the CME UF8 is worth checking out and it is fairly inexpensive. All the m-audio ones I have seen are really limited as far as their midi implemention. I have yet to see one that has any real sysex support, and for a motif, you will probably want that I you map a ton of controls.
 
More info please.

First off, what's your budget?

What do you need in a controller, whether attached to a synth or not?

Weighted/semi-weighted/unweighted?
#keys?
additional knobs/silders/buttons for real time continuous controller use?
portability?

What do you need from your synths?
Realistic sounds?
Craftable sounds?
Additive or subtractive synthesis?
Analog or digital?
Vocoder? :eek:
General MIDI compatibility?
Drum machine?
Physical modelling?

The list could be longer, but that's a good place to start. Also, you might be better served by getting multiple cheaper synths instead of one huge one (For instance, a MotifES and an Andromeda together is QUITE a satisfactory combination of analog and digital capabilities, and is significantly cheaper than an Oasys by itself), so be open to that idea.

I like to make dreamy, melting sounds which progress smoothly.

Explain this a little bit better, or post some examples. This would sound like you're looking for a good analog machine. Do you ALSO need realistic sounds, because a good digital synth would do better for that.
 
Okay...

I really dont care about prices, i just want the most efficient for my needs.

I would like an 88 key weighted board with plenty of nobs and sliders for real time control. My original plan was to actually get a triton studio just because i wanted a nice real-feel piano to play, but i figured it be better to go with a controller and get some racks.

It's really not going anywhere so size/weight doesnt matter.

The music i like to create is pretty much a mix between realistic sounding pop to more of a trip-hop type rythm with plenty of melty analog ambience to it. But having digital control would be good since i plan on sampling a lot of pieces. Ive been told before that it might be better to get 2 smaller pieces and combine them - one of the other reasons i was looking for a superb controller to get some good synths plugged into it.

I dont know the difference btwn an additive or a subtractive synth??

Definitely needs to have a good midi functioning since im sure there will plenty of modules put into it in no time.

Ive been looking for a good drum machine. This is the weak area of my music, so i thought it would be better to leave that out and purchase a seperate piece like an akai mpc or better model. I have no experience with drum machines so i really need one with good control/excellent sounds.

I was definitely going to pick up a motif es rack soon, what's your opinion on that for a synth. I've played it and i like the voices, but im not sure about its synth quality. I also like the sounds of the discontinued novation KS5 model, how its got a lot of liquid sounds to it. I might buy an X-station25 later. Whats probably going to happen is that ill end up getting a high end sound module with a shitload of realistic/world class sounds, and then pick up a nice synth rack to add more uniqueness - which brings me back to how much i want a professional, good feeling controller with plenty of assigns and sliders, etc.

I really appreciate your help, ive only been making music with simple gear for like 2 years and this is my big step up so im kind of lost and unsure of myself. Thanks again tho.
 
Xavier said:
I was definitely going to pick up a motif es rack soon, what's your opinion on that for a synth. I've played it and i like the voices, but im not sure about its synth quality.
British magazine Sound on Sound rated the Motif ES 'Yamaha's best-ever synth module' and in the review they could find only a few minor cons, none of which were about it's build quality or reliability, which is what I assume you mean by 'synth quality'. The review also says it can be 33 instrument multitimbral which means with the expansion boards you can get 33 completly separate instruments - bass, drums, pad, lead etc - going at the same time.

For the kind of sounds/music you are describing - which is not far from what I do myself - you would be foolish not to at least give a good look to a computer setup with a controller and softsynths. There are more softsynths coming out weekly - Absynth, Camel 5000 and Spectrasonics Atmosphere are just three of the big ones that have that dreamy quality that can be difficult to get out of hardware. Low cost or free softsynths are not to be ignored either - ProtoPlasm, Crazy Diamonds and Crystal are all very good freeware examples. And since you say you won't be going anywhere, powerful desktop computers have come WAY down in price over the last two years.

The Motif ES is made to interface nicely with a software setup. It has multiple USB ports and a good computer editor, meaning you won't have to deal with the 'peeking in the trap door' feeling of using the onboard display for editing purposes.
 
Yamaha makes solid gear. The motif is a very good core for any studio but for your dreamy soundscapes, check out a Korg Wavestation. Vector synths are choice for that (thats what I bought my SR for and its only 1u) but chicago boy is right, softsynths can do all that also and then some (but I cant stand atmosphere, I played around with it at my boys place and it sounded pretty weak compared to some other ones).

Find a place where you can try out some real synths (not mass produced stuff you can find at GC) and test the waters. One place you can see and hear some samples are at Sonic State videos .
 
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awesome.

So whats your tips on a good controller? I really wanted a great piano as well, which is why i looked into buying the M-audio prokeys 88, or the studiologic vmk-188. What do you think??

Also, a friend advised me that i should get a full Triton studio keyboard since thats a full workstation as well in which i can plug an ES rack into or other modules, on top of controlling soft synths. And shit, who knows if ill be doing gigs or not.
 
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I really don't know much about the prokeys but just go to a GC and play around with what weighted controllers they have and get what feels good for you, feature wise they will all have similar stuff.

I'm sure the motif has a piano that will blow away the maudio so just a controller would save you some money (or get you more features for the price)

As far as using the workstation aspect of the motif, I would just invest in a computer since it will really be more usefull as a midi control station than anything you would find integrated with a keyboard. For the difference in price between the rack and keyboard, you can buy a mini mac or PC, fat monitor, and a decent midi interface
 
i'm kinda new-old school, but i vote for the kurzweil k2600xs.. 88 weighted keys with a massive synth engine and a sampler... you can tweak this thing '6 ways ta sunday' or whatever the hell they say..
recap: kurzweil k2600xs
 
It sounds like you want a Kurzweil K2600 coupled with a highly craftable analog synth, and a computer with softsynths. The Kurzweil is often overlooked because it's a little older than the other workstations. It's also the most realistic keyboard controller I've ever used. It pains me to admit it, because I love M-audio in general, but I don't like any of their weighted keyboards. The hammer action just feels loose to me, and the black keys sink down too far. Among synth keyboards, the K2600 feels the most like a real piano (outside of getting an actual acoustic fitted for MIDI, that is), which is what it sounds like you want.

And then there's the sounds. The K2600 has some of the best immediately usable bread n' butter sounds out there for a digital hardware synth, particularly when coupled with the right ROM upgrades (be SURE to pick up an orchestral ROM. It's jaw-dropping.) The sounds are also quite amazingly customizable for a digital synth, more so than the top three dogs (Fantom, Motif, Triton). IMO, if you want lower budget digital synths, the best options are the top desktop modules of yesteryear: Yamaha's MU series (MU1000 or MU2000 are best, but REALLY hard to find. MU-128 is really nice too. MUs can use the same expansion boards as the Motif), Roland's Sound Canvas (SC-8850 or an SC-D70. Avoid the SC-8820 unless you don't mind controlling everything from a computer. Run like Hell from Edirol SD series unless you're just looking for "convenient MIDI"), Emu Proteus 2000 (some people like 'em. I like Yamahas and Rolands better).

Actually, about the best piano controller you can buy (dumb or otherwise) that feels like a piano is any Yamaha Clavinova. Since these come with very limited soundsets, they tend to be cheaper than a K2600 too, albeit not as cheap as a true dumb controller.

Now, for getting those crazy leads, pads, and scapes, look into getting a solid analog synth; something like a Nordlead or a Neuron. I would go with one of these if you can afford one in a heartbeat over any software analog-modelled synth (though "Pentagon I" and Absynth can certainly be fun!). Keep in mind though, any analog synth is going to have a pretty steep learning curve before you finally start figuring out how to get the sounds you want. Better analog synths for less money are Korg's MS2000, Alesis Ion, or even a Microkorg (with vocoder baby!)

Then there's the softsynths. I have to admit being biased. For me, softsynths kill my songwriting enthusiasm, due to how much of a pain in the ass they are, between latency issues, loading times, CPU usage, and the fact that there's nothing to reach over and physically dial in unless you set up a bunch of external controllers for each one....Nontheless, facts are facts.

Fact: Softsynths are growing in popularity all the time, and are in some ways more convenient than hardware (realtime software plugins, and all)

Fact: For trying to imitate acoustics sounds as realistically as possible, nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is going to sound more realistic than a large digital software synth. MotifES, FantomX, Triton Extreme, K2600...none of the popular digital workstations come close to touching the realism of software like Quantum Leap, Vienna, or even Garritan.

Fact: I still sequence all my "realistic" stuff on my Sound Canvas first, and THEN render it with softsynths.

Obviously, "hire real musicians to play your brass parts and only use your synths for creative sounds" is the snobby answer, but let's face it: sometimes you need convincing realistic sounds, and it's not always possible to hire the real deal.

Hope that helps a bit.

EDIT: Seismetron - You beat me to it! Right on, man!
 
damn, that kurzweil looks nice. I know i said i dont care about prices, but thats a lot. Would you know how the Yamaha s90, or even the new ES version works as a midi controller. If i bought that id get a great piano, as well as the motif/es sounds.

Or maybe its just a better idea to get a basic contoller (Studiologic VMK-188??) and buy the es rack. Does that sound foolish?
 
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you could always get the k2500 xs.. you can get them used pretty reasonably.. and its pretty much the same thing as the 2600, just not as fancy, and not as many factory installed options... but you could always add them on yourself..

gl
 
Another vote for the K2600XS... Actually I disagree with seismetr0n. The Triple Modular Processing of the K2600 turns it into a completely different monster, unmatched by anything out there, except perhaps Reaktor. It allows you to do things that unless you've had it, you'd not even think of the possibility... such as modulating one sample with another :) Yum. All the other instruments will come and go, but my K2600XS will definitely stay with me for a very long time, if not forever. You can find them for around $1500 on eBay from time to time.

Xavier... the only thing that may be an issue is that with all that flexibility comes the price of a learning curve, as it's not the simplest synth/sampler to program. However, if you're willing to put in the time, it will reward you for a lifetime. It's far far ahead of its time when it comes to sheer sound programming capability. None of the other workstations come even close, not the Tritons, not the Motifs not the Fantoms... none. Not an exaggeration. And you'll only "get it" if you've spent about a year with it :)
 
Xavier said:
Or maybe its just a better idea to get a basic contoller (Studiologic VMK-188??) and buy the es rack. Does that sound foolish?

Well, quite honestly, you could probably buy a K2600 off of Ebay for as much or less than a VMK-188 and an ES rack. I've never put my grubby little knubbers on a VMK before, so I couldn't tell you how good it feels as a piano. The programming functions on it certainly look impressive. Nontheless, if you're looking for controllers for $1000, I feel the need to once again plug the Clavinova as an awesome-feeling controller. It doesn't have all those controls, but you can buy THAT separately too, you know (I know, not as convenient).
 
how come i come across so many bad reviews on the k2600. People says the sounds suck, or the keyboard breaks easy. Does anyone have an explanation for this?
 
Not me. IMHO you should buy one of these and stick with the Motif ES that you liked...
 
Xavier said:
how come i come across so many bad reviews on the k2600. People says the sounds suck, or the keyboard breaks easy. Does anyone have an explanation for this?

The bad rep about the keyboard breaking was due to some early K2500s where they used cheaper buttons than what was specified by the engineers. The K2600s are pretty sturdy.

About the sounds... well the factory patches aren't gonna blow you away, like they would on a Motif ES or a Triton Extreme, they're dating from the 90s. However, this is NOT an instant gratification machine. It rewards those that take the time to program their own sounds... it's in this regard that it will kill anything else out there. What kinds of sounds you create are only limited by your imagination. The synth engine itself is the most capable and flexible... With both the triton and Motif all you got is some filter, which is why you need tons of waveforms to begin with... with the Kurzweil, you don't need as many waveforms because the synthesis possibilities are limitless.
 
sorry about the errant info on the k2600... i guess in my book i'd be happy enough with a k2500... as long as it has v.a.s.t (and a good couple sliders) i'm all set

(i used to program a k2500 for a universities midi lab)

and i've actually built my current desk/workstations slide out keyboard shelf to fit the k2600 (just in case i ever get that kind of money together) :)


gl
 
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