Suggestions for rackmount effects newbie?

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asi9

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In the Endless Search to find "the sound", which requires finding, "the amp", someone mentioned something I hadn't even thought about before after hours and hours looking at Mesa Boogies and Marshall JCM's. Rackmount effects. I was told you just a preamp (one I would try and have heard good things about is the Rocktron "Gainiac"... ever tried it?), some effects to help you get your sound, a power amp, and a cabinet.

It sounds too simple. Is there anything I should keep in mind (other than impedence issues)? What kind of power amp to get? What kind of effects to get/avoid? What kind of CABINET? Does it have to be a cabinet, even? Why not just get a couple of main pa speakers instead of a 4x12 cab? BTW, I play metal. All I really need is clean and distorted (for live, anyway).

Thanks!
 
My friend has the Gainiac and it's very sweet (very beefy distortion), but that also depends on the amp or speakers your running it through. I haven't tried them, but either the J-Station or POD are supposed to be great for effects, but I've heard that the J-Station is better (and that it's good for metal).

And you don't have to run it through a cab, we've gotten a better sound running running the Gainiac through my PA speakers than we have had running it through his halfstack (so whatever sounds good).

I myself don't have much of a guitar setup so I haven't had to much experience with amps and cabs, so I'll leave that to someone else.

-tkr
 
Guitar Tones

I'll tell you a secret about the elusive guitar tone. I hope it'll save you time and money. But, since you don't know me from jack, take it with a grain of salt. First let me tell you a little bit of a story.

One night back in 91', my band was playing and the rock group Extreme (of "More Than Words" and "Hole-Hearted" fame) came into the club. They were playing the next night with Cinderella in a nearby town and stopped in. We knew them already from doing some shows with them in the past and pretty soon had them up on stage to jam.

Now this is pretty important that they got onstage.

The other guitarist and myself were big Nuno (Bettencourt) fans. One time, I had the opportunity to play Nuno's original N4 (the one that Washburn put out) prototype. I had remember that it performed really badly to me. The action above the 15th fret was high enough to slide your pinky clean under the strings. I couldn't even keep a chord in tune (It was still very awesome to play his guitar! It even had blood stains on from where he had 'played till his fingers bled")!

So, this night, the other guitarist in my band and myself were getting a treat: Extreme was going to have to perform on our equipment! We had already played a set and a half... so we kinda had out own sounds dialed-in. But, Extreme had a few of their techs in the club with them... they went around and looked at everything and gave their "OK" and Extreme took the stage and performed 3 tunes... on our stuff.

Nuno was playing my custom-built DiMarzio guitar (single humbucker at the time, one volume).... built specifically for my hands. And my action was extremely low... and my amp... Marshall Jubilee half-stack. Our other guitarist and me were making bets with each other about how bad they would screw up playing our equipment compared to their touring rigs.

BUT... it sounded incredible. We couldn't believe this was the same equipment we played on! Don't get me wrong... we were all very seasoned musicians. But they 'sounded' like Extreme... exactly like Extreme. Nuno blistered my guitar. And it sounded like Nuno. Just like Nuno. Although his rig (at the time) consisted of an ADA preamp... here he was playing through my Marshall & guitar... sounding like HIM! Needless to say... it's real depressing to get beat with your own tennis racket.

The lesson? It wasn't the equipment. The equipment don't mean dick. Let me re-phrase that: garbage in, garbage out... you need to have something decent- some equipment that is dependable. But if you want that "tone"... you create it with your hands (and your head). Your hands are where the tone originates. Equipment is just one of the tools to project it. Your mind-set is another. And your hands are your biggest. If your fingers have a wuss-touch... you'll have a wuss-tone.

If this sounds silly ('cause I'm sure gear heads will say 'yeah... maybe... but you need a blah, blah, blah")
let me paint you one more image.

Most guitarists will agree that Eddie Van Halen has been one of the most influential guitarist of our time. Now before I get bashed... I'm not saying he's the best... no one guitar player is "best"... but I can use him to prove a point. He has got TONE. And it's not equipment. It's hands. All these guitarists were trying for so long to get his sound. They bought Marshall amps and had them modified just like Eddie. They took their guitars apart and put them together like Eddie's. And a few wanna-be's even went as far as to paint their guitars just like Eddie And the funniest part is that he gave the secret to his sound on Van Halen's second album, Van Halen II.

On any VH tune, Eddie has got this great sound. His guitar just sounds so fat. But on VH II, he plays "Spanish Fly" on a Nylon string acoustic. And if you listen to it... you'll hear he still has that fat tone. Yup... no Marshall... no modified Kramer... just Ted Templeman's (their producer) cat-gut guitar. He was telling the whole world "hey, my tone has nothing to do with my amp, guitar or effects... see?".

Good luck in your Holy Quest... just remember, you probably already have that killer tone in your head... now just get it to your hands.

And that conludes this year's lesson in tone.

Chad Austin
the Logic
http://www.thelogicmusic.com
 
Exactly....

...right on, Chad!!!

There's no "magic" instrument or piece of gear... YOU have to make the magic happen in your hands... which is hard, 'cos it's much more work than just plugging into gear, but that is the ONLY way to do it..........

Bruce
 
On "Spanish Fly" i thought he put electric string on an acoustic to improve the volume of his tapping parts? I could be wrong. Don't think I'm arguing your point, I agree with you 100%.

Jake
 
Yeah, just buy the cheapest, piece of crap amp and be done with it because it's all in your hands. (sarcasm)

I don't agree that equipment doesn't matter much. I've play guitar too long to believe that a cheap Crate amplifier is going to sound as good as a nice Marshall, for example. I also think there are some amazing sounding amps made by Marshall, Mesa Boogie, Fender, Peavey, Vox, etc.

My advice is keep trying them out with YOUR guitars until you find one you really like.

Amplifiers and guitars have a huge effect on tone, it's not all in your hands.
 
I disagree WA....

I remember bringing in a cheap Sears guitar to a local music when I was a teen for some "adjustment", and the guy behind the counter could really wail... he noodled on a Strat thru some sort of amp (Fender Twin, I beleive), then he picked up mine and proceeded to play - exactly the same way.......... some tonal differences to be sure, but it IS in the hands........

This is not saying you want to play on crap gear, just that the playing skill is MORE IMPORTANT than the actual gear...

Wide Awake... you do have a knack for missing the point sometimes..................

Cheers,
Bruce
 
I think Asi9 wanted to know what kind of power amp or cabinet to look at, I think everyone missed the point. Including you Bruce.
 
How did I miss the point??

Someone brought up the very correct point about the tone being in your hands, not as much in the gear...........

It is just an aside...... not off-topic, not taking away from the original question, just additional "information"!

Peace, dude!

Bruce
 
Another big thumbs up from me. I have experienced the kind of stuff that MrSong and MrBear are speaking of. With slightly lesser known(though equally talented) players than Nuno. One guy that had toured with James Taylor, Van Morrison and Linda Ronstadt used to host an open mic 'round here and he played through this crummy MusicMan amp with a single 12 and he sounded freakin' KILLER through it. (I sounded freakin' killed, good thing I was backing up a great singer with nice boobs) Obviously there are limits to what kind of gear you can play for certain kinds of music. Believe me, its hard to play metal with a 4X10 Bassman! (speaking from experience here, too) But once you have gear of a certain quality level, the rest is really in your hands, heart and head.

Good luck.

peace.
 
Nobody cares about the music if the singer has great boobs.
Jake
 
I hear you guys!

Geez... I had no idea that my reply would cause such a stir! You guys must have the music in you! I hope you make millions from it! Feels good for people to understand a hard realization. Or most people.

JrLemonz: you may have been correct about EVH's strings. I honestly don't remember. That's quite interesting.

Blue Bear Sound: Thank you.. that was kind. Hope it's not too cold up there in Canada!

WideAwake:
Easy there, fella.. it's just a post... but I'll play the game for one round and then I'll be out of here for another month or two. I just wanted to pop in and give my $.02. Besides, I love flame wars because I don't have to physically fight.

In my reply, my 8th paragraph read: "Let me re-phrase that: garbage in, garbage out... you need to have something decent- some equipment that is dependable"
The overview of my advice to Asi9 was not to let the equipment dictate where he goes. You are quite right that equipment matters. But it's only the bowl the cake was made in. "Effedupstrat"'s post said it clearer than mine. I'm not a gear head- I don't even like talking guitar shop- I find it extremely boring (here goes more flame wars). I just want to listen and enjoy.

Yes, he should try out equipment with his own guitar. But after spending about 5 grand a year on musical equipment, I don't mind sharing my wisdom and knowledge to keep others from making costly mistakes. It's a shame for a guitarist to spend more time tweaking his amp than learning to play. I also produce many, many projects and I keep hearing different artists whine about their "sound" and how they can't get into the mood. The funny thing is that the best bands I have worked with don't care about their sound. They know their ideas so well it's transferred through whatever instrument they play- be it drums, voice or guitar. Don't misunderstand me... they DO care about their equipment... but there's a little matter of mind-over-matter that comes into play with professional musicians.
I am one.
And I have worked with more than I can count.

I, too, have been playing for a long time- going on two decades. I started very young- with no lessons... another point I believe very strongly in- even though I taught guitar for 8 years and know my "theory" better than a few professors I know (which means about as much as the equipment to me). I have also been featured in International (and National) Guitar Magazines as a guitarist. I've performed on over 700 recordings, been asked to teach in colleges, been asked to perform nationally for artists who you have heard of. I have also performed onstage and off with most of the guitarists whose recordings you have probably studied. I have played on music that has been distributed all over the world. I believe- perhaps even arrogantly so- that I am quite right about the tone in your hands. I have had to go into studios and cut tracks- a lot of times without ever hearing the music ahead of time- and sometimes without my guitar! Believe me, I woud rather have my guitar. But I'll play just about anything you could possibly need on whatever you have lying around the studio. A few cuts I have wound up using the cheapest guitar I could find- they're fun to see what you can do with them. I have even jammed on a little kid's guitar. Oh, and this is just about every kind of music you can think of... although I don't have much experience in Country!
I thought that Asi9 might like some hard advice from a different direction. I don't have a lot of experience in some of the newer equipment because- like I have been saying- I have the same sound no matter where I play or what I am playing through. I feel the same about the Mesa Boogies, Marshalls, Vox's, etc.
Still hope that everyone finds their own niche in guitar Heaven. And it's subjective, of course. Even with all of my skill, and all of my experience, you may hate my tone! :)

Ciao,
Chad Austin
the Logic
http://www.thelogicmusic.com
 
I have to say I'm flattered but.....

First of all, I must say I'm flattered by your very inspiring responses. And I agree ALMOST completely. If you play good, you can make almost any instrument sound good. On our band's demo, I played the whole thing with a crappy pawn shop special guitar, the brand was a "Brian" I think, or something, heard the company doesn't exist anymore. But I still played the snot out of our tunes, and the recording sounds pretty darn good I must say. It's the musician that makes the song, not the gear.

But I was actually wanting a technical answer here..... unless there's someone that is willing to argue that a 20watt practice amp can cut through drums just as well as a 120 watt 2x12 combo if you are an outstanding player. My amp simply doesn't have the capabilities to cut through our drums and bass well, and it's time to upgrade. Just wondering about the basic theory behind rackmount effects is, cuz it may prove cheaper than having to spring for a Mesa Dual Rectifier or Marshall JCM2000.

Besides, even if it's not quite as good as a Mesa, I'll still MAKE IT sound good via good playing technique!!! :)
 
'Nuff Said- It was me going off in the wrong direction!

You're right about rack effects. I have an original 87' Marshall Jubilee stack that I desparately love. But I also have a GSP2101 from Digitech. And I love it, too. As cool as my Marshall is, I get more tones out of my GSP... it just has more FX, more control.

Control is something you'll want to think about. I'm not just talking about feedback from gain. I'm talking about the ability to morph from clean to dirty without that silly "clip" that so many guitarists don't think is noticable. Try that one in the studio and you'll be out of a job. It's a blessing to be able to do this. And you can do it with FX as well as volume as well as gain. Not too shabby.

I bought my GSP in 1994... so I know there has been more products to come out that would probably blow away what I have (except good ole' Marshall). The Gainianic is nice. There are a few out there that are just incredible. You'll just have to go listen with your ears.

Look for extra goodies and whether or not you'll ever need them. For me, a pre-amp would have to offer the ability to have direct-line out, preferably with an AMP SIMulator. They're real handy to have when you have a soundman who doesn't know what he or she is doing. Tell them to get the mic away from your amp and you'll go direct. No feedback. More control. If you have a programmable pre-amp, you can have all your volumes pre-set.... like for solos and that extra boost for that great hook in the chorus. How many times have you watched a live band play... the guitarist has his eyes closed... ripping out his solo he's rehearsed for 12 hours... and the soundman is talking to someone else about this great gig he pulled off last week in the other town. Totally missed turning the solo up. If you pre-program your pre-amp... just let the sound man hear your loudest volume and then tell him to go away. You're set for the night. Pretty comforting, huh?

I know some purists will argue about mic'd versus direct. And as much as I preach about tone, they've actually got a point. It may not sound as good (it won't sound like garbage either... and let's not forget the fact that for every bad guitarist there's a bad soundman to make him sound even worse) but... I'd personally give up 5% of "amp tone" for 100% of control.

Look in one of those "sell everything under the sun" sites like Musician's Friend, Sam Ashe, or Sweetwater. Look up pre-amp and see what they offer. Their catalogs (they're free) are even better because everything is sorted out for you with a little tasy blurb of text to get you interested. Give it a try and good luck!
 
J-Station...

I own the J-Station, with the J8 foot controller and it has so many possiblilities. It also comes with software you can load on your computer and make programs and presets a lot easier...
 
asi9 said:

Does it have to be a cabinet, even? Why not just get a couple of main pa speakers instead of a 4x12 cab?

Click to expand...

You'd probably be better off with a cab, PA boxes are at least 2 way, which means that the highs and lows come from two different speakers and therefore can't be picked up with just one mic. Also the high frequency roll off that most cabs have actually work in your favor, plug a distortion pedal straight into a mixer and you get a very harsh, bright sound, the speakers are what usually tame this and give you a warmer sound.
 
Guitar speakers are prefered over PA cabinets because the speakers have a more limited frequency range, especially when it comes to it's ability to reproduce the high-end. 12' or 10" guitar speakers are mid-range devices, they roll off the high-end and don't emphasize the low end. They just sound good on guitar....why screw with something that works.

If anyone disagrees then "fuck off" in advance. Just kidding.
 
*slaps forehead*

Duh!!! Very good points indeed..... something I didn't even think of..... even if it did sound good, how are you supposed to mic a speaker AND a tweeter/horn? I shall just look into investing in an Ampeg or Marshall cab.

Thanks all.... I think I have all the info. I need (if that's possible)
 
What's with the big "life changing story" sharing, the dude just needs some practical advice. Try a EVH5150 combo with an Ibanez VA3 processor. It's my cup of tea but it may not be yours!
 
I use a DigiTech 2120 trough a Mesa Boogie Mark IV. I bypass the tube preamp in the 2120 and only use it as effects only processor for the Boogie. But, it is nice to know that if I had a catastrophic failure to the Boogie that I have my tube presets in the 2120 so that, in that case, I could turn on the speaker emu and tube preamp and plug right into the system to make it through the rest of the gig. The tube pre is passable but I prefer the Boogies.

My .02
 
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