Suggestion on Panning needed!

S

Svemir

Member
Hi there!

I need an opinion from someone more experiencedthan me.

I have recorded and mixed this song with Cakewalk and used LANDR (AI Automatic Mastering tool) to master it.

For who doesn't know LANDR, you upload your song and AI does the mastering instantly for you, you can upload a reference track also it will apply the same mastering sound.

I have two different types of masters here, the first is the Landr standard one, the second I used a reference track from Mogwai album to make it sound similar.

What's the best in your opinion?

For me the first one is wider but maybe too much, in the sense that the instruments are more panned left and right, you can really hear the difference with headphones when you switch to the second song everything is a bit more centered.

I have heard a lot of times that 100% panning LCR is the most used and suggested by mixing engineers, to make it sound wide,

at the same time I'm not sure, it seems to me that the second one sounds much better, the first one is more clear and you can better define each instruments because they sound more separate of course, everything is more panned, but still the second one is more powerful and the instruments mashed together, doesn't sound like is all separate.

Any other suggestions are welcomes especially about dynamics. Thanks!



https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-Td2uUkeB5Ag3Q2C-IAFkoF0AdbaEl3I/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lpJwg_Nd4z3ZWopLYt5ZyiRW8BAPtGY4/view?usp=sharing
 
For a start, LCR is not 'most used' - its a personal choice. I don't like wide-panned parts myself, they don't sound natural to me, specially with headphones. And don't forget that many people listen to music with a single speaker device, or one earbud, so may only hear one channel, depending on their device.
IF you get results you like form LANDR, more power to you, but 100% of mastering engineers will tell you that mastering is not something that can be done well with software - you need real ears on a mix, as everyone of them is different.
Mix 1 - seems way over-balanced to the right. The guitar that comes in around 2:29 is incredibly harsh to my ears.
Mix 2 - sounds more balanced L-R, but that guitar is still too harsh and (my opinion) is that a lead instrument should be centered.

If you want more ears on your mixes, use the MP3 Clinic section here on the forum.
 
mjbphotos said:
For a start, LCR is not 'most used' - its a personal choice. I don't like wide-panned parts myself, they don't sound natural to me, specially with headphones. And don't forget that many people listen to music with a single speaker device, or one earbud, so may only hear one channel, depending on their device.
IF you get results you like form LANDR, more power to you, but 100% of mastering engineers will tell you that mastering is not something that can be done well with software - you need real ears on a mix, as everyone of them is different.
Mix 1 - seems way over-balanced to the right. The guitar that comes in around 2:29 is incredibly harsh to my ears.
Mix 2 - sounds more balanced L-R, but that guitar is still too harsh and (my opinion) is that a lead instrument should be centered.

If you want more ears on your mixes, use the MP3 Clinic section here on the forum.
Click to expand...
Great Thanks a lot for the tips, I will fix that!
 
So you're saying you did LCR mixing, and both versions are the same mix run through different mastering chains?

I think the second one does work better too. The first does have better separation of instruments, but they're all weirdly far apart from each other, and stuff that should be audible in both ears is only reaching one.
That lead at 2:25ish is especially better in the second. In the first master it's hard panned and kind of buried despite being the main melody at the moment. In the second it's better centered and cuts through the mix more
 
VomitHatSteve said:
So you're saying you did LCR mixing, and both versions are the same mix run through different mastering chains?

I think the second one does work better too. The first does have better separation of instruments, but they're all weirdly far apart from each other, and stuff that should be audible in both ears is only reaching one.
That lead at 2:25ish is especially better in the second. In the first master it's hard panned and kind of buried despite being the main melody at the moment. In the second it's better centered and cuts through the mix more
Click to expand...
Exactly same mix panning, but is the stereo width at master level that changed the panning.
 
Cool tune. Lots of issues with mix.

Agreed that main solo guitar is either just over distorted, or maybe you have a saturation plug on it? Also the cymbals are really friggen harsh as well.

One suggestion, forget about the 'stereo width' thing. I have yet to hear someone use one effectively if it is audible. It can cause all kinds of artifacts and sound like crap. Maybe good for edm, or some other digital shit. For real rock n roll, it just makes mud IMO.

So yes, mix 2 does sound better, but it seems like the issue is in initial tone being recorded, or possible just proper gain staging on the way in. I feel like too much is too hot. Things are not sitting in their place and being cohesive. Aside from the way too loud/harsh cymbals, the drums have no beef and sound lost and distant to me.

I would address the issues we have heard, and export here a raw mix before mastering. All that did was make the issues more apparent. Mastering does not fix things in the mix. It can help to bring some things together. But not without a talented person doing it. Computer based ones are just an algorithm that guesses.

I literally just completed a full 9 song project with my favorite mastering guy in NY. There was an issue in the mix that I had not noticed in my studio. He allowed me to send a second round with repair so that he could make it all work for the best of the record. That is what quality mastering guys do. They listen and make un-biased decisions so that the final product comes out sounding great on all systems.

Can you post a un-mastered version now? That would help.
 
Sure, thanks a lot for the precious advices, very kind. I’m quite a newbie and I recorded this at home just with a laptop, a guitar, and aN audio interface. Drums are programmed.
I post the non mastered version in about 30 minutes.
 
jimmys69 said:
Cool tune. Lots of issues with mix.

Agreed that main solo guitar is either just over distorted, or maybe you have a saturation plug on it? Also the cymbals are really friggen harsh as well.

One suggestion, forget about the 'stereo width' thing. I have yet to hear someone use one effectively if it is audible. It can cause all kinds of artifacts and sound like crap. Maybe good for edm, or some other digital shit. For real rock n roll, it just makes mud IMO.

So yes, mix 2 does sound better, but it seems like the issue is in initial tone being recorded, or possible just proper gain staging on the way in. I feel like too much is too hot. Things are not sitting in their place and being cohesive. Aside from the way too loud/harsh cymbals, the drums have no beef and sound lost and distant to me.

I would address the issues we have heard, and export here a raw mix before mastering. All that did was make the issues more apparent. Mastering does not fix things in the mix. It can help to bring some things together. But not without a talented person doing it. Computer based ones are just an algorithm that guesses.

I literally just completed a full 9 song project with my favorite mastering guy in NY. There was an issue in the mix that I had not noticed in my studio. He allowed me to send a second round with repair so that he could make it all work for the best of the record. That is what quality mastering guys do. They listen and make un-biased decisions so that the final product comes out sounding great on all systems.

Can you post a un-mastered version now? That would help.
Click to expand...
Here it is, non mastered.

Consider the bass is temporary. I was experimenting with the master waiting for my bass player to record the tracks.
I might re-think some guitar panning to put the lead in the center.
Is the issue only with the first "clean" part of guitar at the beginning? Indeed is not really clipping over 0 but sometimes is going over the -6 db limit, but I've heard that's not a big deal if you pass -6.
Still not very clear to me how you can identify a “hot” sound just by listening and not looking at the meter, how do you distinguish ‘hot’ from a light guitar amp gain for instance?
What do you mean by hot? Like a bit dirty sound?
I didn’t do much to the guitars l’m not a fan of compressors and saturations plugins and all that stuff.
using the guitar amp plugin th-u I suppose who made the plugin to make the various amp sounds already thought about that to have that specific amp sound, so I just put some pedals like flanger and delay that’s it.
but I can tell you I gain staged everything properly.
Peak at -6 /-4 maximum.
Used Th-u pluggin amps.
Didn’t put a compressor at all.
Didn’t cut frequencies either, just high pass and low pass filter.

About the drums? to me it seems pretty beefy indeed, I might be wrong, consider is programmed midi drums.

 
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Granted, I'm not listening on good headphones or speakers right now but on my JBL earbuds, but it REALLY sounds distorted to me. By the time it gets to 3 minutes in, I simply had to turn if off. It sounded WAY overdriven. I don't think it was due to the earbuds, since I was just listening to music on it and it sounded fine.
 
TalismanRich said:
Granted, I'm not listening on good headphones or speakers right now but on my JBL earbuds, but it REALLY sounds distorted to me. By the time it gets to 3 minutes in, I simply had to turn if off. It sounded WAY overdriven. I don't think it was due to the earbuds, since I was just listening to music on it and it sounded fine.
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Ok, I get it you mean when the heavy drums part starts?I’m struggling to understand whether you are speaking about an audio / mixing problem or a simple matter of sound taste.
Notice that the distortion I applied in that part on the rithm heavy guitar is a big muff pedal, which makes a very fuzzy distortion. Used mainly in grunge, shoegaze bands. So that is intentional, if you mean that.
 
I’m just starting having doubts now whether you might know the kind of music sound i want to reproduce. When you are telling me is too distorted for me is not, I want it to be very distorted. I put the amp gain at maximum intentionally.
different thing is you are telling me there is some technical audio mixing issue, clipping, breaking the headphones, i dont know
 
That's fine if that's the effect you were going for. I thought maybe it was the automatic mastering software doing it. Let's just say that it was unlistenable for me. And yes, I'm not a big fan of fuzz tones. When I was young, we only had fuzz, Fuzz Face, Jordan Boss Tone, Fender Blender. While I had several back then, they didn't last. I would rather just turn my amp up to 10 (about 35-40 watts).

I thought both were overly compressed. I didn't run LUFS on them, but I'm guessing they're quite hot.

As for the soundstage, I preferred the one with the more narrow pan.
 
TalismanRich said:
That's fine if that's the effect you were going for. I thought maybe it was the automatic mastering software doing it. Let's just say that it was unlistenable for me. And yes, I'm not a big fan of fuzz tones. When I was young, we only had fuzz, Fuzz Face, Jordan Boss Tone, Fender Blender. While I had several back then, they didn't last. I would rather just turn my amp up to 10 (about 35-40 watts).

I thought both were overly compressed. I didn't run LUFS on them, but I'm guessing they're quite hot.

As for the soundstage, I preferred the one with the more narrow pan.
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No but I believe that hardcore music, grind all that stuff for instance cannot really be listened with crappy headphones, you would not understand a thing.
 
What do you mean by hot? Distorted? Is is hot bad? Ora just a matter of taste? If you would listen to a grindcore band would you always say the guitars are hot? Of course they are, it’s grind!
 
Hot... as in the signal is really loud, there's very little variation in volume, no dynamics. Everything is compressed to the max. Add in the fuzz and you basically lose all sense of tone. If that's what Grind is like, then I'll pass. As you said, it's a matter of taste, and it's obviously not my cup of tea.

As for "crappy headphones", I went back and listened on my JBL monitors, as well as the Sony and AKG headphones. It was the same on those as it was on the JBL earbuds.

You asked for opinions, don't get upset if people give you honest ones.
 
TalismanRich said:
Hot... as in the signal is really loud, there's very little variation in volume, no dynamics. Everything is compressed to the max. Add in the fuzz and you basically lose all sense of tone. If that's what Grind is like, then I'll pass. As you said, it's a matter of taste, and it's obviously not my cup of tea.

As for "crappy headphones", I went back and listened on my JBL monitors, as well as the Sony and AKG headphones. It was the same on those as it was on the JBL earbuds.

You asked for opinions, don't get upset if people give you honest ones.
Click to expand...
Not upset man! Thanks for your advices indeed. Just saying cause I dont understand what would be the dynamic in a distorted guitar with metal zone for instance, it has no dynamic by definition, it’s a fuzzy distortion where you can barely hear the guitar picking. I’m just not sure whether yours is a suggestion based on a technical mixing issue or just your taste, maybe you just don’t like guitars super distorted with big muff pedal and you are assuming it’s a technical mixing mistake.
That fuzz sound is given by the big muff pedal, gain staging was done perfectly, not clipping.
 
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