Subwoofer Frequency and Bass Recording Tips for Heavy Music

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Subwoofer - what frequency?​

Hey Guys,
I've got Samson subwoofer and I've set the sweep at 70 Hz. I don't know if this is too little or too much low end. How do you guys set your subs? I guess it also depends on the kind of room, so I don't know if there's any guideline for the right frequency......

Also, is it a good idea to record bass-guitar with a DI box and mic and mix them together. Since I record mostly Har'n'heavy stuff, I need that extra oomph...:D

Thanx!
 
Hey Guys,

I've got Samson subwoofer and I've set the sweep at 70 Hz. I don't know if this is too little or too much low end. How do you guys set your subs? I guess it also depends on the kind of room, so I don't know if there's any guideline for the right frequency...
The biggest guideline is whatever the low end response of your stereo monitors is. The idea is you want to use the subwoofer to try to extend the frequency range of your monitors without artifically boosting some frequencies by over-overlapping the crossover frequencies or by leaving too much of a gap in the response by setting the crossover too low. You need to use your knowledge of the specs of your current monitors and your ears to determine all that. Expiriment around and see what gives you what your system needs.
Also, is it a good idea to record bass-guitar with a DI box and mic and mix them together. Since I record mostly Har'n'heavy stuff, I need that extra oomph...:D
There's nothing wrong with that idea, whether that is what you need only you can determine. But you'll probably get more oomph out of playing style and judicious use of compression on the DI'd bass than anything else.

G.
 
Hey thanx Glen!
As usual very useful information form you. Guess I'll still have to get used to the relationship between my Alesis M1 620's and the sub. ;)

Cheers
Joey
 
I just got a sub and I've got it set to 150hz (max it'll crossover at). Saved my mixes.
I also use a DI for bass. Mine has a parallel out for exactly what you described. It's a great way to record bass.
 
How do you guys set your subs? I guess it also depends on the kind of room

The "standard" subwoofer crossover frequency is 80 Hz, even if your speakers can go lower than that. This is done for two reasons:

1) By having the sub handle the lowest two octaves the main speakers don't have to work so hard, which lets them play much louder overall and with lower distortion.

2) No crossover is a brick-wall filter. So if the roll-off is 12 dB per octave, the mains still have to work down to an octave lower than the crossover frequency.

--Ethan
 
The "standard" subwoofer crossover frequency is 80 Hz, even if your speakers can go lower than that.
That "standard" is the THX specification, and only necessarily applies to those systems which are designed to that spec.

If you have mains on the 2. channels that only goes down cleanly to 100Hz (like some small Yorkies or Yammies), setting the crossover to 80 is going to leave a hole, or at least a 20 Hz range that'll be sloppy. OTOH, if you have mains that'll go down to 50Hz flat and you have a big honkin' sub that is cleanest up to 60Hz and starts gets sloppy above that, setting the crossover to 80 is not an optimal idea.

G.
 
Assuming you don't have your room properly tuned, go easy with that sub. No bass traps and a wompin sub is a recipie for disaster. Once you've arrived at the appropriate crossover freq, dial the sub level in to just fill in the bottom. It's easy to go overboard, so be sub-tle. ;)
 
while it's possible to site exceptionsand we love to do so... as a rule of thumb i've always thought it as ethan has described... 8o hz will work well for most set-ups... in anycase never go above 120hz sound starts to get more directional at this point and is bad juju...
 
while it's possible to site exceptionsand we love to do so... as a rule of thumb i've always thought it as ethan has described... 8o hz will work well for most set-ups... in anycase never go above 120hz sound starts to get more directional at this point and is bad juju...
Problem is it's one of the multitude of "rules of thumb" in this racket for which the number of exceptions exceeds those that fit the rule.

Actually it's not a bad rule for an increasing number of consumer-oriented loudspeaker systems that are matched and/or not matched but purposely designed to meet THX specifications. For those systems the 80Hz "rule" or "standard" usually will indeed fit quite well.

But when you move to the world of nearfield monitors and "prosumer subwoofers", many of which are NOT THX certified or designed, IMHO all rules gotta go out the window and one instead needs - or at least should - concentrate on finding proper matches between their subs and their mains.

For example, check out the graph of the room response from Coolcat's YSM1P nearfields in this post. The top graph is the response from his nearfields in a well-treated room without a subwoofer. Go ahead and put in a mismatched sub that has excellent lows but crosses at 80, and you're going to have a huge hole in response right where much of the mud likes to gather. This is not an uncommon "exception" in the world of cheap nearfields.

This is where one probably should relax their definition of "subwoofer" the way some manufacturers have, and look at a "subwoofer" that is actually little more than a seperate powered woofer. For example, something like the M-Audio BX10s, which, with a frequency range and a variable crossover that extends to 200Hz (better than it does down to 20, IMHO), is a fairly anemic "subwoofer", but can act like a fairly decent "woofer" to augment smaller nearfields. In fact, M-Audio pretty much advertises them for use with bass-hungry computer speakers and smaller nearfields. (I personally think it's a crime that they are called "sub-woofers", as their purpose is quite diffeent, but they do fit the bill as far as matching the mains situation in that case.)

Then there are subs like the Tannoy 10s that actually low pass at 6dB/octave below 150Hz; an 80Hz crossover wouldn't even apply there, but would work great with something like NS 10s or the YSMs.

On the other side of the coin you have somethig like the Mackie 120, which IS THX-centric. It's crossover only goes to 110Hz, and it actually has a roll off slope of 24dB/octave. A great sub, IMO the best of the bunch mentioned (also the most expensive), and a "real" subwoofer and not just a powered woofer. Not so appropriate for something like the YSM or NS10, however...at least not at an 80Hz crossover.

G.
 
thanx for all the replies, guys! I'm starting to understand a bit more now. My room I think is actually quite good. It's an attic with a sloping roof, about 6 x 5 mtrs, completely wood-panelled, with carpet, and I've got a couch an armchair made completely out of foam (you can lift them with one finger!) and they absorb pretty well. So I don't think I have an issue with sound reflections. I've set the Sub at ca. 100 Hz right now and balanced the volume with my monitors and I quite like the way it sounds. Of course I can only judge if it's right when I've done some mixes and played them on other systems. As soon as I have something ready I'll post a sample.

Thanx to all of you!
 
I just got a sub and I've got it set to 150hz (max it'll crossover at). Saved my mixes.

How so??? Just wondering how getting a sub "saved your mixes". Did you have way too much bass on your mixes before???
I'm trying to understand how getting a sub can help me to that extent.

Also, I think crossing them over at 150hz is a little high.
 
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Just to add a bit more of clarification, it's important IMHO to remember that the *purpose* of a subwoofer in the studio is not necessarily quite the same as it is in a listener's playback system.

In a surround sound system the usual idea is to provide real bottom end, to provide almost as much feel as sound. If there is a bit of hole or inaccuracy in response at somewhere the transition from bass to sub bass, it's not so much noticable or necessarily all that important to the average surround listener. If they needed accurate bass reproduction in all channels, they would depend upon their mains to supply most of it; the sub is there to put the SUB in subwoofer.

Audiophiles will rightly disagree, but audiophones are not your average surround users. They are aslo the ones most likely to tweak their crossovers to fit their system, and not just follow a preset standard.

(In the car, the only purpose of the sub is to annoy as many other people as possible and generally make life on the planet just that much more miserable. So we'll ignore those. ;))

In the studio, however, there are two semi-distinct purposes for a sub; one is if one is mixing in and for surround and needs to sub to be able to have a full surround system to mix to. The other purpose, and the one I believe we're mostly talking about here, is to extend the low end frequency coverage of the miser's monitoring chain so that they can accurately provide a balanced mix. This is especially important for those whose main stereo monitors are not all that good in the bass and low bass frequencies, the ultimate examples being those with computer-grade speakers, low end budget "studio monitors", or old school nearfields like NS10s or Auratones that lack in bass almost by design.

Those looking to set up studio subwoofers for that second purpose should - IMHO - be looking to smoothly extend their main's response to the best of the sub's capabilities more than they should be looking to break the china in the dining room. It's subwoofer with the emphasis on the woofer, not the sub. If you can get them both, great. But a sub that gives you great sub, but doesn't dovetail with your mains to give you a smooth continuum of frequency response, is going to give you trouble mixing at some important bass frequencies that can be troublesome enough to begin with.

This is why the "standards", which were developed almost entirely with entertainment playback systems in mind, shouldn't necessarily always apply to the use of subs in the studio, and why an 80Hz crossover "rule of thumb" in the studio can have so many exceptions as to render the rule virtually impotant.

Of course, IMHO, the ultimate solution is not to get cheap mains and try to fix them with a sub, but rather get decent mains to begin with. But there's a whole lot of "your situation may differ" in that.

G.
 
How so??? Just wondering how getting a sub "saved your mixes". Did you have way too much bass on your mixes before???
I'm trying to understand how getting a sub can help me to that extent.

Also, I think crossing them over at 150hz is a little high.


Well, it wasn't like I COULDN'T mix before without it but it always took a lot of tweaks from the studio to real world to get it honed in where it would sound ok on most other systems. With the sub, 2-3 and anymore are basically flavor adjustments. 150hz Just seems to work best in my room with these speakers, could be totally different elswhere, no particular science, just what seems to work...
 
Well, it wasn't like I COULDN'T mix before without it but it always took a lot of tweaks from the studio to real world to get it honed in where it would sound ok on most other systems. With the sub, 2-3 and anymore are basically flavor adjustments. 150hz Just seems to work best in my room with these speakers, could be totally different elswhere, no particular science, just what seems to work...

Cool man. I didn't mean that as a challenge at all. I really wanted to know how it helped in the sense that, if I got subs, I'd be scared that they'd make me turn down the bass in my songs. Just because I'd be hearing so much more bass that I'm not used to hearing.

As far as the frequency, I guess, like you said, it depends on your room, etc...:cool:
 
I had the same apprehension...will there now be TOO much bass and I'm screwed the other way??? But no, there's a volume control on the sub, once it's hooked up, get a reference CD (one you KNOW how it should sound) and dial it in from there. Worked like a charm for me. Get one from a place you can return it to if it's not right for you, that way you're covered.
 
If you have mains on the 2. channels that only goes down cleanly to 100Hz

Well, sure, but speakers that are already rolling off at 100 Hz have no place in even a low-end home studio!

Edit: I just dl'd the manual for his Alesis speakers and they claim 56 Hz at the low end and specifically suggest 80 Hz for the crossover.

--Ethan
 
Ethan,
thanx for looking it up for me....
okay i've set the frequency now to somewher between 80 and 100 Hz and it still sounds good to me.....just to put both your minds at rest ;)
 
This is especially important for those whose main stereo monitors are not all that good in the bass and low bass frequencies, the ultimate examples being those with computer-grade speakers, low end budget "studio monitors", or old school nearfields like NS10s or Auratones that lack in bass almost by design.

Those looking to set up studio subwoofers for that second purpose should - IMHO - be looking to smoothly extend their main's response to the best of the sub's capabilities more than they should be looking to break the china in the dining room. It's subwoofer with the emphasis on the woofer, not the sub. If
you can get them both, great. But a sub that gives you great sub, but doesn't dovetail with your mains to give you a smooth continuum of frequency response, is going to give you trouble mixing at some important bass frequencies that can be troublesome enough to begin with.

G.

the smooth transition goal. Blue Skys are a great example.
maybe anything 5"..4"..they just aren't going down that low.

another purpose is the in/out check too...lets not forget the cool footswitch!:D

smooth transition ...
...has anyone used a bass guitar only, for setting the volume of the sub and crossover, to invisibly transition to the mains?

If electric bass guitar Low E is at 41hz and then we play notes that go higher in freq (up the neck), and over the 80-150hz range into the 200-300 etc...range..wouldn't this really be revealing of the transition and volume setting between the sub and main?
It'd be kind of a "ear" method, imo, but for someone without ref mics and rta and all that seems like we could hear it.
Wouldn't that work?

and what happens at the crossover does it add or subtract.

anyway, off the SUB ject......
I just got a FREE dead 18" flat panel ($450 new).....
got it fixed today for $39, after very little homework and t-shooting...love the internet info sometimes..:)
it made all my songs more colorful!!:p
 
Ethan,
thanx for looking it up for me....
okay i've set the frequency now to somewher between 80 and 100 Hz and it still sounds good to me.....just to put both your minds at rest ;)

It's not so much about how good it sounds, but rather how well it relates to other systems.

Eck
 
It's not so much about how good it sounds, but rather how well it relates to other systems.

Exactly, and translation is all about being flat, not flattering. This is why professional acousticians use measurement software.

--Ethan
 
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