Sticking with a mix?

[IllAdvised]

I'm pretty new to mixing and recording, having just recently purchased enough gear to start tracking this past winter. I've recorded a couple tracks completely, and some half-finished tracks and keep hitting a wall. I don't have any deadlines so I'll pretty much procrastinate unless I feel inspired to do something and since I'm not a trained engineer (I've taken a few classes on it at school, I'm a music major) I find myself getting frustrated when I can't get something to sound decent or the way I want it. I end up having a lot of rough mixed songs and end up eventually redoing them because they don't sound like I want them to out of the box (I sadly have the 'I want to plug my guitar in and have it sound the way I play it' mentality but want to do things that are more complicated production and arrangement wise which requires a lot of patience in the mixing stage) which ends up just yielding the same result. It becomes really easy to get discouraged when you're listening for something for days on end and think you have it to where you want it, and then pop it into your car in a playlist with some other tracks and it sounds way lo-fi.

Do any of you guys have any advice for someone who is just starting out engineering and mixing on how to stay motivated and to stick with a song until its finished?

 

[JimmyS1969]

Sometimes, it is best to let it go, until you feel inspired. Sometimes, it is best to address why it is not sounding like you hear it in your head, now.

It took me a long time, to be able to get close to the sound I wanted, immediately. Still working at it. But, there is much to be said about time in working at it, that makes things easier.

I must question, have you looked at the room you are recording in, as possible cause for not getting the sound you want? I bet that has a bunch to do with it.

 

[miroslav]

Getting things to sound high quality is a process that can take a lot of trial-n-error and result in a lot of crappy mixes before some good ones happen. The key is to learn from every track, from every mix...and improve on it the next time.
If you just expect to hit on a magic formula on your first few tries, and have great expectations from square one...you will be dissapointed...well, you already are.

To tell the truth...some people never quite get a handle on recording, or they give up too soon after starting. It can take time to go from crap to better to good to "radio ready" quality.
Not to mention, it's not all about "mixing". Too many newbs think that once it's in the computer, it's all up to the software to make it sound great. You got to have a solid song, the right arrangement, very well performed & recorded tracks....and then maybe you have a shot at a good mix IF you have the knowledge and experience and gear to make it all come together.

 

[JimmyS1969]

Getting things to sound high quality is a process that can take a lot of trial-n-error and result in a lot of crappy mixes before some good ones happen. The key is to learn from every track, from every mix...and improve on it the next time.
If you just expect to hit on a magic formula on your first few tries, and have great expectations from square one...you will be dissapointed...well, you already are.

To tell the truth...some people never quite get a handle on recording, or they give up too soon after starting. It can take time to go from crap to better to good to "radio ready" quality.
Not to mention, it's not all about "mixing". Too many newbs think that once it's in the computer, it's all up to the software to make it sound great. You got to have a solid song, the right arrangement, very well performed & recorded tracks....and then maybe you have a shot at a good mix IF you have the knowledge and experience and gear to make it all come together.

Very wise words Miro.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Honestly, if you've got no deadlines, and you're just doing it for fun, then why stress it? Sometimes the best thing is to just walk away for a while and come back with a new perspective.

OTOH - You ain't gonna get any better unless you're actually practicing, so you should probably record and mix everything you can as often as possible.

I have about 4 full albums, several EPs and a couple singles - spanning like a decade and three different DAW platforms - in various states of finish. I've been threatening to sue myself for breach of contract!

So...good luck with that...welcome to self-produced home recording...let me know if you figure it out!



...But more seriously, maybe you need to start setting yourself some deadlines and taking it just a bit more seriously. Set aside some specific amount of time where you "punch in" to your mix room and work on something - anything - for an hour or two every day, every week, whatever your "real life" will allow. Maybe set yourself a release date. Pick something significant, like an upcoming birthday or holiday or something. If you play out, you could pick some upcoming gig, or better yet go out and book yourself an album release party!

...or just don't worry about it, have fun, and let things come as they come...

 

[miroslav]

I have about 4 full albums, several EPs and a couple singles - spanning like a decade and three different DAW platforms - in various states of finish.

I thought it was just me.
I end up starting more things than finishing...but....I keep at it, and I don't beat myself up if some songs take months for me to finish, while others go quicker. I have a few that I must have done the initial tracks for them about 3 years ago...and I still haven't gotten around to final mixes.....just have some loose ends I need to deal with, and then...I get an idea for yet another new song, so I'm off tracking that!

One good thing of late....I hooked up with a female vocalist a couple of months ago who also writes, so we are now getting into a serious collaborative phase, and it's helped also push me to get things some older projects done that I had on the shelf, and new ones with more immediate focus, since we have some bigger plans (hopefully it will pan out) for the future..

 

[IllAdvised]

Sometimes, it is best to let it go, until you feel inspired. Sometimes, it is best to address why it is not sounding like you hear it in your head, now.

It took me a long time, to be able to get close to the sound I wanted, immediately. Still working at it. But, there is much to be said about time in working at it, that makes things easier.

I must question, have you looked at the room you are recording in, as possible cause for not getting the sound you want? I bet that has a bunch to do with it.

The room most definitely isn't treated. As a result, other than acoustic guitar and vocals I'm using all amp simulators and virtual instruments and sometimes having a friend reamp them through his decent studio. This is what it looks like:

Front:

Back:

I also don't record vocals with headphones since I just can't stand singing with headphones on, but I have a vocal shield that attaches to my mic stand that I use all the time with my SM7b, which seems to help a bit with room noise.

I personally suck at getting good distorted guitar tones. I can get great ambient and clean tones out of amps and simulator programs like Guitar Rig, but I can never decide on a distorted guitar tone that I like and I end up just getting tones that to me, don't sound right (always a compromise between the drive, bass, and clarity of the tone that I can never get right in amp simulators) but with my tube amp, it sounds good. All I have though is an SM7b and an Shure Beta 58A microphone which I haven't really tried even bothering to mic the cab since I'm sure the room noise would murder it. That's probably my biggest issue, other than drums, with tracks.

Honestly, if you've got no deadlines, and you're just doing it for fun, then why stress it? Sometimes the best thing is to just walk away for a while and come back with a new perspective.

OTOH - You ain't gonna get any better unless you're actually practicing, so you should probably record and mix everything you can as often as possible.

I have about 4 full albums, several EPs and a couple singles - spanning like a decade and three different DAW platforms - in various states of finish. I've been threatening to sue myself for breach of contract!

So...good luck with that...welcome to self-produced home recording...let me know if you figure it out!



...But more seriously, maybe you need to start setting yourself some deadlines and taking it just a bit more seriously. Set aside some specific amount of time where you "punch in" to your mix room and work on something - anything - for an hour or two every day, every week, whatever your "real life" will allow. Maybe set yourself a release date. Pick something significant, like an upcoming birthday or holiday or something. If you play out, you could pick some upcoming gig, or better yet go out and book yourself an album release party!

...or just don't worry about it, have fun, and let things come as they come...

My goal was to record an album this summer, but I know that my mixing abilities are not up to par by any means, so I've kind of accepted that out of everything that's my biggest weakness and I'd probably be better off paying someone to do it down the line. However, I still think I can mix certain things and would like to at least deliver a decent rough mix that I know will sound great if someone more experienced mixes it, instead of sending a bunch of rough tracks not sure what the result will be.

I thought it was just me.
I end up starting more things than finishing...but....I keep at it, and I don't beat myself up if some songs take months for me to finish, while others go quicker. I have a few that I must have done the initial tracks for them about 3 years ago...and I still haven't gotten around to final mixes.....just have some loose ends I need to deal with, and then...I get an idea for yet another new song, so I'm off tracking that!

I'm 20 and I just feel like I have to get things out ASAP...at least that's how I feel with the pressure on bands to get stuff out really quickly. That kind of plays into the stress to get things done...wanting to get an album done and try and play shows and tour and get the ball moving. So, my own limitations as an engineer are preventing me from that, but financially I can't afford to do it any other way ha! I also really want people to hear these songs and it feels like I've been working on stuff for years!

 

[miroslav]

Treat the concrete walls....get use to headphones and click tracks when tracking.

 

[IllAdvised]

Treat the concrete walls....get use to headphones and click tracks when tracking.

Any suggestions on how to treat them? Is there something I can buy that can put a limiter or gate on headphones? Sometimes while tracking because I run a lot of tracks, protools glitches and spits out some loud electronic beep thing that I'd like to avoid too while wearing headphones lol, plus pitch issues. Plenty of artists don't use headphones from what I've read too.

 

[JimmyS1969]

Yeah, you have a nice setup there man, but you really should focus on making the room worthy of recording/listening to the first note. Trust me, treating that room acoustically, will be like magic, in regards to how your tracks record. Yes, most of it will come down to the sounds you are trying to record, and the quality of the performance, but if you can't hear it, or capture it well, then you have no real starting point.

Most people shrug this off as, whatever, but the ones who take it for fact (which it is), realize quickly, how much more easy it is to get what they want, with a whole lot less reliance on fixing crap. Which is tough not to need to do, in a room like yours. There is nothing ideal, in what you could record in that room, the way it is...

 

[JimmyS1969]

Any suggestions on how to treat them? Is there something I can buy that can put a limiter or gate on headphones? Sometimes while tracking because I run a lot of tracks, protools glitches and spits out some loud electronic beep thing that I'd like to avoid too while wearing headphones lol, plus pitch issues. Plenty of artists don't use headphones from what I've read too.

Yes, there are a s**ton of threads in the studio building forum here. Read up on it. Much can be done, with minimal expense (guessing $400 in your room), if you have some 'Do It Yourself' skills, or know someone who does. Hell, anything would help a room with concrete walls.


Just so you know, I am one of those guys, who was amazed at how much room treatment made a gigantic difference. I have found it to be the single best investment I have ever made, in recording quality. Well, besides not recording people who can't play an instrument...lol

Actually, I am just going to be a bit rude, and say that if you are serious at all about getting decent recordings, and you don't spend money on treating that room correctly, you would be a dumbass. Hands down, room treatment (not foam, blankets, or egg cartons btw) is the most important/productive step/investment you need to make next. That is not just an opinion, it is complete truth.

 

[RAMI]

Yeah, other than all the great advice you've recieved here so far about practice, patience, and more practice.......

You're recording in a cement room with no headphones. How good do you really expect your vocal tracks to sound, not mention your acoustic guitar? I'd say, No.1, treat the room, No.2 Figure out why your set up produces pops, No.3 Get used to recording with headphones.

Then, practice and have patience.

 

[JimmyS1969]

Oops, forgot about the Protools glitch/beep thing. You may want to post a question towards that, in the Protools forum. I have never heard of such a thing, and seems likely to me, that it is another issue, regarding something else in your programs, stealing the audio driver, driver problem itself, or whatever. I'm not a Mac guy, so someone with experience there, may be able to help better.

I also forgot to say 'Welcome to the forum Ill'!

 

[miroslav]

Yeah...what Jimmy and RAMI said.

I understand that headphones can feel weird...they did for me the first time I started recording, and probably did for everyone else too...but when you record some things, and vocals is one of them, if you have all kinds of bleed going into your vocal track, you just give yourself more work.

One trick vocalists will use it to do a DJ thing, and just use one cup over one ear, and push the other side off your other ear ( you pick the ears )...that way you'll hear your voice better, but still get the benefit of the cue mix in the headphones. Really though, with a little practice you learn how the listen to your "headphone" voice, and it's no big deal after awhile. It sounds a bit strange at first, but you'll learn how it's supposed to sound in the headphones, so that it's right for the track...and will apply to other things too.

Heck, when I record guitars, the tone balance is never right in the headphones for me compared to what I hear in the room...and every pair of headphones adds their flavor...but I've learned what it is "right" in the headphones, and now know how to listen to the tone in the cans, and it doesn't bother me.
Really...it's all practice, like RAMI said....you get use to stuff pretty easily.

Get the room treated...and then get the tones you want in the room, and you'll even be able use more real amps and instruments if the room sounds good...instead of all sims.
One day, it will just start to fall into place...so you kinda' have to go through the learning pains. When you don't like something....STOP....and think about why and how you can change/fix it. Don't just get disgusted and move on to something else.

 

[kip4]

Your monitoring system has a lot to do with the sound changing when you put it on the car stereo.
Get used to using reference tracks. Something like the sound you want for your finished product. Note how everything sounds on the ref track. Are guitars miore middle frequency/high/low and all other instrumentation too.
And try not to fix too much in the mix. Record it how you want it to sound at source. And yes treatment will greatly help.

 

[Bobbsy]

Some good advice from Miro and Jimmy there.

If I can generalise from what they're saying, spend a LOT of time getting your initial recordings as good as possible. It's always more fun mixing a good recording than trying to save a poor one. In your case this may indeed mean some room treatment and teaching yourself to use headphones to avoid bleed.

Beyond that, what tends to work for me is to do a very quick "almost there" mix but then put it aside for a while--maybe an hour or two if I'm feeling keen but often for a few days. Then, without watching your DAW screen, sit back and listen...really listen...to your trial mix, being as analytical as possible about what's good and bad. I often do this turning my monitoring up slightly louder than I'd normally mix and closing my eyes. Unless my trial is really bad, this generally inspires me to go back and add all the little tweaks the mi needs.

Of course, the other thing to say is "know when to stop" When you're doing your own stuff without client or deadline, it's all too easy to overthink and overmix things. If nothing else, put the mix down again, this time for a week or two, before going back to it. Sometimes you'll be pleasantly surprised, other times you may hear LITTLE changes to finish things off.

Then, of course, you can talk to Miro about mastering!

 

[JimmyS1969]

Here's that picture again...

 

[Steenamaroo]

Beyond that, what tends to work for me is to do a very quick "almost there" mix but then put it aside for a while--maybe an hour or two if I'm feeling keen but often for a few days. Then, without watching your DAW screen, sit back and listen...really listen...to your trial mix, being as analytical as possible about what's good and bad.

Take this to the bank. Only recently I've started turning my screen off to listen.

Originally I did it to remove the temptation to tweak as I listen, but now I do it because I've realised I hear the mix totally differently with the screen off.
Sounds like bull but, seriously, at least try it.

Taking breaks is great advice too. If possible, don't listen to other music.
I had a tutor who did a 5 minute mix, hit save, then just forgot about it for a while, regardless of progress.

He felt he'd get the majority of the mix done in that 'clear head' 15 minutes, and would spend the next 15 ruining it.

 

[RAMI]

Some great advice from Miro, Jimmy, ashcat, kip, and Steen.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Psfttt...I just plagiarised.