stereo doubling that doesn't suck

[blamblamblam]

One trick I'm very fond of is doubling a track and panning the two copies hard left and hard right to open up the center of the mix without de-emphasizing the doubled instrument. Let's start with the examples below.

Witness Daryl Hall's lead vocal on "I Can't Go For That":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6buJGU7wiBg

Or the bass synth on Yeah Yeah Yeah's "Soft Shock":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqyqHZEDbRI

I'm totally blown away by this. Is there anything else going on besides a slight delay or pitch shift in the doubled track? When I've tried to do this trick, I usually get one of two things:

1. The instrument just ends up sounding panned to one side...I can feel my brain leaning to one side of the mix when I focus my attention on the instrument.
2. I get flanging, which sounds rubbery and awful.

 

[RD423]

1. The reason you are getting the "flanging" is because you are not saying the words at the exact same time. Your words can be off by a 10th of a second and it will give u that effect. Try this, record a 3rd vocal track of exactly the same thing and just turn it down and that should fix the issue. But I don't like doing 2 vocals and panning one hard left and one hard right without the 3rd turned down with no panning at all. Because it doesn't give u the fullness. for that u can just do one track and leave it with no panning and have the same effect (IMO)

 

[blamblamblam]

Hrm, interesting point, but the "doubling" I'm talking about is a direct duplication of the original take, not two different recordings of the same vocal or instrumental line. For example, in the Hall & Oates tune in the original message, there's only one actual vocal take, and it's being processed somehow to produce the doubling effect. IIRC Hall & Oates never did "classical" double-tracking (in which you actually record two different takes)...their doubles were all created synthetically via the mix.

To my ears, I don't think classical double-tracking produces a "flanging" effect per se, but it's also not quite the effect I'm looking for either.

 

[Joza]

Well Im not sure if I understood your problem right but what I know is that if you have to identical tracks and you pan other one left and other one right and add a short delay to the other one, you will get Haas effect which makes it sound like it's panned to the side that has no delay.

Try making two copies of it. Leave the original to the center, and pan the duplicates to the left and right. Add slightly different delays for left and right duplicates (that shouldnt cause as much haas effect) or pitch shift another one up and another one down.

For flanging.. Have you tried experimenting with the delay time? Vary it slightly and see if it helps.

 

[matttheaxe]

I am hearing the doubled/panned vox, but they are essentially "in time" which does not create the effect you are so enamured by.

What I hear effect wise is a pretty serious chorus effect on both vocal tracks.
This is what gets the shimmery space. Keep in mind, a crappy chorus plug in can't do this. It will sound weak and slushy. He is probably using a rack mount $2000 unit. Just make sure you use a good one, push the effect hard, low regen and a med-slow speed.

Good luck.

 

[dintymoore]

The Town Hall and Quacker Oats tune sure sounds good... the sound of the sax on that tune is one of the coolest sounds of all time to me.

What I do is put a dry track in the middle, and the same track +6 cents to the slight right and -6 cents to the left. One of the pitch shifted tracks has 40 ms delay, the other 80 ms. These are all rough numbers... depends on the song.

And the pitch shifted tracks have the bottom rolled off, maybe around 100Hz.

That's probably close to what you've done.

For me it started with the Yamaha SPX series and DMP11 mixers that had a stereo pitch shift effect and I transferred those settings to Cubase later.

 

[NL5]

One trick I'm very fond of is doubling a track and panning the two copies hard left and hard right to open up the center of the mix without de-emphasizing the doubled instrument. .

Hrm, interesting point, but the "doubling" I'm talking about is a direct duplication of the original take, not two different recordings of the same vocal or instrumental line. .

edit - I see that you are adding a delay to the one side. that is the cause of your flanging.

 

[NL5]

Oh, and that Hall and Oates tune is two completely different tracks. The timing is inconsistent between the two tracks.

 

[leaningpine]

I always liked that effect on Daryls' vocals. It should be just a very very slight delay. What i would do is put the vocals through the delay line and move the delay up until you start to hear the vocal spread into stereo. Keep one side dry and the other wet then the flanging should not be there. Test it in mono, it should just sound doubled.

 

[blamblamblam]

@NL5: Daryl Hall is a machine, but I really don't think his part is two separate recordings. He's on record for claiming that he never did extra-take double tracks (see "Live at Daryl's House" with Chromeo), and anyway it just doesn't have the two-take character.

 

[blamblamblam]

What I do is put a dry track in the middle, and the same track +6 cents to the slight right and -6 cents to the left. One of the pitch shifted tracks has 40 ms delay, the other 80 ms. These are all rough numbers... depends on the song.

And the pitch shifted tracks have the bottom rolled off, maybe around 100Hz.

I'll definitely try that out, but it almost seems like the presence of the center-panned track would negate the hollowing effect I'm talking about. The "I Can't Go For That" mix sounds like it's got loads of space in the center...you can hear the backing vocals fill that space up when they come in.

 

[blamblamblam]

Well Im not sure if I understood your problem right but what I know is that if you have to identical tracks and you pan other one left and other one right and add a short delay to the other one, you will get Haas effect which makes it sound like it's panned to the side that has no delay.

The Haas effect! Thanks for introducing me to that term: it's exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

The Haas effect! Thanks for introducing me to that term: it's exactly what I'm talking about.

Not the same thing. The Haas effect, a.k.a. "precedence effect" refers to an effect that tricks the brain into thinking that the direction of the sound is coming from the first source. It won;t make it sound centered or indistinct, but rather from one side or the other - whichever is first. The delay between the two sounds must be greater than at least 5-10ms and less than 35ms for it to work.

If you really want to spread the vocals or make their direction indistinct, invert the phase on one side before delaying it.

G.

 

[blamblamblam]

Not the same thing. The Haas effect, a.k.a. "precedence effect" refers to an effect that tricks the brain into thinking that the direction of the sound is coming from the first source. It won;t make it sound centered or indistinct, but rather from one side or the other - whichever is first. The delay between the two sounds must be greater than at least 5-10ms and less than 35ms for it to work.

Just to clarify, the Haas effect was the correct analysis--it was brought up in reference to what I was doing wrong, rather than what I was going for. In other words, I fail to produce the effect I'm going for, and instead what I get is the Haas effect.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Just to clarify, the Haas effect was the correct analysis--it was brought up in reference to what I was doing wrong, rather than what I was going for. In other words, I fail to produce the effect I'm going for, and instead what I get is the Haas effect.

Ah, OK; my mistake.

You still might want to try the phase reversal though. Just for shits and grins if nothing else .

G.

 

[noisewreck]

Hrm, interesting point, but the "doubling" I'm talking about is a direct duplication of the original take

This is the reason you're getting that flanging sound. Try actually doing double takes. With synth sounds this is not going to work, especially with digital synths (even VA), however with vocals and guitars, this is the best way to go.

 

[NL5]

@NL5: Daryl Hall is a machine, but I really don't think his part is two separate recordings. He's on record for claiming that he never did extra-take double tracks (see "Live at Daryl's House" with Chromeo), and anyway it just doesn't have the two-take character.

It's two separate tracks. Listen to it. The enunciation is slightly different, and the timing is not the same on every word.

BTW - that "character" is EXACTLY what you get from double-taking tracks. Works great with guitars as well. I do this exact thing ALL the time. So do most major producers - they just don't normally hard pan the tracks like they are in that song (for lead vocal tracks anyway - backgrounds are often done that way)

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

they just don't normally hard pan the tracks like they are in that song

Frankly, I don't understand the need to manually duplicate and pan a track at all if all you're going to do is chorus it or throw a delay on it (or both); we have algorithms to do that automatically these days; they're called "choruses" and "delays". .

There is indeed a distinct difference in character between that and double-tracking. Usually, if you're unsure if it's double-tracked or not, it's double-tracked. A chorus or delay rarely leaves you guessing as to what it is.

And frankly, double-tracking isn't all that hard unless the vocalist really sucks. Sure, it may require a bit of punching and jabbing on the second track to get it close enough to the grid of the first vocal to sound clean, but that's why God created recording studios .

G.

 

[NL5]

Frankly, I don't understand the need to manually duplicate and pan a track at all if all you're going to do is chorus it or throw a delay on it (or both); we have algorithms to do that automatically these days; they're called "choruses" and "delays". .

That's why God created Eventide...

 

[moresound]

That's why God created Eventide...

^^^^^^+This+^^^^^
I just couldn't go on in life without my Eventide Eclipse.