starting up again with a new setup for 10,000

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kaminari13

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hi,i need abit of feedback ,saved up a bunch of dosh for a complete new recording setup from start to finish including stuff like rackboxes and cables etc; I need to record live loud rock bands in a rehersal space (not exactly amazing acoustics but plenty of "charm") ,drums ,bass and guitar/s all playing live together,one seperate room where i normaly stick a guitarist ,i want atleast 12tracks of simultanious recording
7000 euros for new equipment ehem!!,i´ve have a 3 month long headache trying to work this out and i thought spending money was supposed to be fun? what would you do?
so far i have...a beat up sm57 a t-bone sct800 ,an old sennheiser 421n, 2cheapo t-bone O.H condensers(to replace).2 cheapo t-bone tom mics (to replace)and a sennheiser 606..........
,a matrix 4ch headphone amp w/talkback mic ,4 pairs of more me cans w/extentions ,5 cheapo boom stands (must replace)a bunch of mid price range cables , behringer tube pre(must go) behr..compressor(autocom)behr..5band parametric,behr...intelligate, bellari mic pre ,a t.c dual engine effects unit,
2x yamaha md8 data disc recorders(footswitch synched for 16tracks)i know alot of folk put these down but i managed to record some punk/metaly bands pretty well (good enough for afew 7inches anyway)
a mid range hifi amp w/some j.b.l control 1s and some big fat high end 1980s speakers(for home mixing /bass tests) some sennheiser hd25 cans and a blue steel 45 for keeping guitarists quiet between takes(baseball bat for drummers,they seem to understand it better)i do not own a computer ,cannot burn c.ds (i´m writeing this on my flatmates before some smart ass asks)
Ive been looking at stand alone d.a.ws most are full of features i dont need (drum computers etc)and often dont do more than 8 live analogue tracks ,i dont really understand how to use a p.c/mac and have been trying to aviod them abit .
what ive been looking at so far is...
o.hs rode nt5s maybe some cad e100s(for other uses too) not sure about oktavas
toms/floor tom ,senn e 904,beyer m201/revox equivalent if i can find em ,sure beta 56s ,audix´s md421 ,senn 441
git/bass a sennheiser e906 md421
bass drum ,cad e100 md421 ,audix d6 (together with one of the previous)
vox ,looking at sm7b for git too(expensive in europe) or a good mid/high range large membrane condenser mic(but what?)
the mics will probably suck up 1/4 or 1/3rd of the budget i guess
next down the line after some decent cables are pre amps i guess
do i need pre amps on everything? decent compressors ,pre eq?
r.n.c(cant get em at the mo in europe)joemeek t.l a focusrite mindprint..ow thats expensive and i´m confused aaaarrggh !!!! maybe i should get one superexpensivo pre amp channel strip whatsydoody for singin and solo stuff?(i know money aint everything ,so gimme some pointers)
maybe just on the bass drum and the snare.
from this point the further i go the more clueless i am
i can leave the mastering out for the meantime ,i´d rather get someone else to do that .
any smarty pantses out there who can cure my headache would be much appreciated ,cheers and ein frohes festus euch alle
 
damn dude

i'm not going to read all of that cause it hurts my eyes...but basically, make sure to get the cleanest signal path possible - get the highest-quality mics, preamps, and monitors that you can afford

since you're looking to stay away from a DAW, i would suggest getting something like a mackie or alesis HDR - you just throw the bitch in your rack, pop in a hard drive, plug the sends from your mixer/preamps into it, and hit record...hit play, and it sends the signal back out. in this case, you're also going to want to get some outboard shit(comp's/eq's/gates/limiters/reverbs) because you won't have the option of using plugin/digital processing
 
thanks

thanks geezer i hadn´t thought of that option ,i still dont know crap but it sounds more my cup of tea to work twiddling knobs on a desk rather than pushing a mouse
 
kaminari13 said:
thanks geezer i hadn´t thought of that option ,i still dont know crap but it sounds more my cup of tea to work twiddling knobs on a desk rather than pushing a mouse
Click to expand...


Get a board with direct outs some compressors and effects and some ADAT's and you'll be ready to kick some ass. That's a pretty minimal knob tweaking non-computer using set up and that will probably blow your budget, but you could probably make some decent recordings. BTW I have no idea why I'm recommending ADAT but I just always thought it'd be cool to use.
 
Damn... I'd say this were spam, but halfway through the post it doesn't start spouting off about penis enlargement in all caps.

Anyway... I've got a setup similar (I think) to what you are looking to start out with. The brands may change, so people should feel free to correct me on those (i.e. better mixing desk for summing tracks than the Yamaha, although I think it works wonderfully for what I use it for, tho the pre's blow - why I use outboard!)

First, how many tracks do you need at one time? If its 24 or less, you are probably good to go on your budget. 30+ and the mixing desk alone will eat a lot of that budget. Here is my current setup:

3x Tascam DA-38 digital tape recorders (sync'd), running out to a Yamaha MG32 via Hosa snakes (DSub-25 to 8x 1/4" male TRS). For input to the recorders, I simply run outboard preamps straight in, to avoid printing any effects, compression, etc. All that stuff gets added later, at the insert jcks on the mixing console. With some decent mics and outboard effects that didn't break the bank, I have a nice, quiet, mostly transparent setup, even with the likes of a Yamaha mixing console *ducks*

I'll admit, the digital tape decks are out date. I got em cheap from a local place that was closin shop, and had em layin around. Perhaps my hearing isn't what it used to be from playing in marching bands and blues groups, but I can't really tell the difference between running my mics into the same pre's, and then comparing the raw output with that of the recorders' output, so I am set for the time being (until I can afford to upgrade to an HD system).

For your purposes, at the very least, for a decent 24-track setup (where you can record 24 tracks simultaneously), I'd suggest the following:

Alesis HD24: 1500

For mixing, one of the following two options:
- Yamaha MG32: 1100
- A couple 8-channel mic pre's (since the onboard Yamaha's are pretty noisy)
- Hosa snakes (8x 1/4" TRS male - male) to connect each set of 24 I/O points
*or*
- Something like the Allen & Heath boards that have direct outputs so you can hook the recorder up and use the onboard preamps.

As I have never done this, two questions arise. First, can you then run the outputs of the 24 HD recorder channels back into the line-ins on the board? This would seem logical, and would be necessary for monitoring what is already on tape while recording to new tracks. Second, how are the onboard preamps in A&H boards? I've always used outboard, so I went for the Yamaha board, as I only needed it for summing tracks, doing a little EQ, and properly routing channels to other outboard equipment (comps, etc), before getting mixed in.

If you go the external preamp route (which I like for the flexibility - but I am also not recording 24 tracks simultaneously, either!), Im not sure what to recommend for 8-channel pres. Search around the board here, as you will get some conflicting views, but will ultimately find most suggest some decent, multi-purpose ones. I've heard the Focusrite ones are pretty good for the money (about 700 for 8 channels).

So, that's the general setup... 24-track HD recorder, and a console with enough MONO channels for mixing all of your recorded tracks - from there you really have to start doing research. There are a lot of general-purpose mics you will find highly recommended across this forum. For recording acoustic guitars, I like the Rode K2, and I also use it coupled with a Sennheiser e609 for some nice clean jazz and blues tone from my Fender Blues DeVille. For vocals, I still haven't found a mic I really like. I am in the process of upgrading my preamps, as the ones I currently use color my mics on the high-end, and they can make my vocal tracks sound a little harsh. I've tried others (borrowed from friends), so I know this is the point in the chain that is causing the problem. Just waitin to get up the funds to upgrade!

I haven't recorded drumset (despite the fact that I have one and play - I live in an apt. so it isnt much of an option right now...), so I can't make much judgement on mics for that purpose. I'd say, search the forums for each purpose you want mics for. Often, you will find that one mic will do many things, as many have found here, and they mostly won't cost an arm and a leg.

Good luck searching, and I hope my post was as eye-straining to all as the first! I love to ramble sometimes...
 
Start at the beginning

kaminari13 said:
(not exactly amazing acoustics but plenty of "charm")
Click to expand...

The two most important places to spend your money are:

#1- education- I would spend the majority of the money learning all there is to know about sound engineering, acoustics, electronics, etc.

#2- once you educate yourself, you'll know that the rest of the money would be best spent balancing the ACOUSTICS of the space in which you will be recording.

After that, you can basically answer your own questions about which gear to spend your money on.
 
Good point. From what he intimated, I figured he would be recording acts on-location. I think I blanked out there for a bit in the middle, so maybe I read that wrong. If you are recording in a set space, the most money probably should go to developing the space. Of course, to work without a computer, and you need to upgrade everything from mics and pres to the recorder and mixing facilities, you are going to be stretching 10k pretty thin.

Figure, 1200 desk, 1500 recorder, enough mics to record multiple guitarists, a bass player, drumset / percussion, etc (2000? I dont have the time to figure out the actual cost of a general set of mics for all those purposes), mic preamps (prob another 2400 unless you use the onboards), outboard processing, cables, etc.

I think that will take up 10k right there. For now, unless you are planning on making money from this setup outright, I'd hold off and do a lot more research. I think its taken me 2-3 years to move up to my current recording setup, from when I started with a single 8-track recorder and a crappy Behringer mixer.

Just the ole' 2 cents.
 
jonnyc said:
BTW I have no idea why I'm recommending ADAT but I just always thought it'd be cool to use.
Click to expand...

Yeah, until you have to use a couple of them sync'd up...or have one of them chew up your tape...
The HD version Alesis makes nowadays is much more handy. Today, digital audio tape is a silly and cumbersome thing, IMO.
 
haha yes it is. I've only had tape eaten in a machine that I bought used that came in a non-functional state, so I haven't hit that wall yet. The sync'd machines do have that bit of lag time, which is obnoxious. Alas, I don't have the 1500 to invest in the HD at the moment... *some day* :)
 
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