Songwriting Credits?

[vanillachai]

I have a situation. I am a solo artist who has recently started a band with a bassist and a drummer. When I write the songs I bring them to my band and they write a drum part and bass part for it. We recently recorded an album, and now my drummer wants songwriting credits and part of the copyright. I was wondering if you could give me some advice on how this works? We did not write the songs together, and I have done other research on other musicians who also have this type of "band" situation. Usually, it is the person that writes the lyrics and music that gets all the credits and copyright. From a business perspective, I have already discussed with them that I see them as studio and live musicians and intend to pay them as that...yet I'm not sure if my drummer understands this.

 

[grimtraveller]

It's a hard one morally and logistically though not legally. You wrote the songs, end of story. You need to register them as soon as the sun is up.
However, it's a hard one because sometimes, the part that the other instruments play is integral to the song too and that's why many bands have just shared a group credit, regardless of who came up with what.
I've felt for a long time that song writing gains too much credit while actually arranging and putting a song together with all it's constituent parts isn't seen as being as skilled or important. But to me it is. I've given drummers credits for songs that first 'appeared' in jams, even though I will go on to do all the work and carve out the song.
But everyone is different and feels differently. If enough people reply to this thread, you will get a good broad sweep of opinion, many the polar opposite to mine.
That said, if you've already brought the songs to your bassist and drummer, they can hardly say "Well, we wrote this" can they ? Even though that's what the drummer is saying !

 

[Armistice]

If you're in a "band" you should at least be able to negotiate the situation. From my point of view, anyone that adds value to a song deserves some credit - but that's a personal opinion - and how much credit is also a matter for debate.

Depends upon the how the songs were created... too hard to give an opinion from what you've said.

And, if you see them as studio and live musicians, then it's possibly not a band as such, giving you more a case to say "no credits" but also you can't "intend to pay them" - if you haven't actually paid them yet, and intend paying them at some stage in the future, then they can argue that they have skin in the game and are a band and so should get some credit for their labours...

Good luck..

 

[vanillachai]

As far as the band goes it's kind of like "bob marley...and the wailers" or..."florence and the machine" or.."ben harper and the innocent criminals.." it's that type with my name up front and the backing band. We are not writing songs together...and the stuff that they come up with I am telling them if I like it for the song or not...but I still want to give them creative freedom and to not be robots...

 

[witzendoz]

How it usually works based on the APRA guidelines (in Australia where I am) and I have found that most band members feel this is a fair system:

The person that wrote the lyrics would have an automatic 50% share of the royalty. If the same person wrote the music and arranged what all the other musicians played they would now get 100% and would be the only name on the credits.

If the person wrote the Lyrics and others worked out all the music / melody for it the lyric writer would get 50% and the remaining 50% would be split up according to how much input everyone had, if only one other person worked out all the music they would get the whole remaining 50%. All contributors are acknowledged on the credits.

If the person wrote the lyrics and the music, but then when the song was introduced to the band the song was reworked around the original idea but the players had a big part in the final sound and added ideas, the Lyric writer would get 50% and then they would get an extra share of the 50% split between the band. for example 4 piece band, 1 lyric writer then all 4 worked on the song, lyric writer gets 62.5% the other 3 get 12.5% each. All contributors get acknowledged on the credits.

Alan.

 

[Armistice]

How it usually works based on the APRA guidelines (in Australia where I am) and I have found that most band members feel this is a fair system:

The person that wrote the lyrics would have an automatic 50% share of the royalty. If the same person wrote the music and arranged what all the other musicians played they would now get 100% and would be the only name on the credits.

If the person wrote the Lyrics and others worked out all the music / melody for it the lyric writer would get 50% and the remaining 50% would be split up according to how much input everyone had, if only one other person worked out all the music they would get the whole remaining 50%. All contributors are acknowledged on the credits.

If the person wrote the lyrics and the music, but then when the song was introduced to the band the song was reworked around the original idea but the players had a big part in the final sound and added ideas, the Lyric writer would get 50% and then they would get an extra share of the 50% split between the band. for example 4 piece band, 1 lyric writer then all 4 worked on the song, lyric writer gets 62.5% the other 3 get 12.5% each. All contributors get acknowledged on the credits.

Alan.

Wow... 50% for bad rhymes... I'll take your word for it Witz but it does seem a little slanted to lyrics which are, in most cases, not what gets people "in"...... interesting...

 

[Armistice]

As far as the band goes it's kind of like "bob marley...and the wailers" or..."florence and the machine" or.."ben harper and the innocent criminals.." it's that type with my name up front and the backing band. We are not writing songs together...and the stuff that they come up with I am telling them if I like it for the song or not...but I still want to give them creative freedom and to not be robots...

If it were me, for the sake of peace and harmony, I'd throw them a minor credit in terms of %... but the question still remains as to whether you're actually paying these dudes cold hard $ for their contributions as they contribute... if you're not, I think it weakens your argument that you shouldn't give them a credit.

Ultimately they're your songs, however.

 

[witzendoz]

Wow... 50% for bad rhymes... I'll take your word for it Witz but it does seem a little slanted to lyrics which are, in most cases, not what gets people "in"...... interesting...

Actually it's the Lyrics that 99% of the time get the public in, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, to name a couple, and Bob Marly, one love, the song would be nothing without the Lyrics.

Alan.

 

[vanillachai]

Interesting. With CD sales, I would like to give them a % of cd sales, also money for playing on the album too.

 

[Armistice]

Actually it's the Lyrics that 99% of the time get the public in, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, to name a couple, and Bob Marly, one love, the song would be nothing without the Lyrics.

Alan.

To each his own I guess, and don't get me wrong, I do admire a good set of lyrics, but a large % of songs that are around these days aren't in that category, and it's something else - melody, riff, style of voice, instrumentation, beat etc. that gets people listening to start with...

Just seems that 50%, for most songs, is a little too high...

 

[Armistice]

Interesting. With CD sales, I would like to give them a % of cd sales, also money for playing on the album too.

Ah - this is my point - they appear to be on a promise. When/if you make some money, you'll give them some... I can see that they'd want to formalise that arrangement somehow.

Fair enough if this was all understood before anyone started, but I guess these things never are, are they?

I've never discussed it with the other half of my band... I hope to have this problem some day..

 

[rayc]

Would that be Vanilla Chai & the 1/2 Strength Lattes?
In Australia there's copyright available for the arrangement as well as the song, (for the purposes of most of the world the song consists of the lyric if any & the melody - not the chord progression I've been told & that's weird because the melody comes from the chord progression or visa versa & some songs are heavily riff based - that might transpire that if you write the chord progression before the melody is written by someone else there could be some argy bargy - now, if you write the lyrics as well as the chords that the melody comes from you'd have to double dip).
What is needed is a gentlemen's agreement, (albeit in writing), as has been mentioned, be it as generous as the sex pistols (band credit for all songs) or as niggardly as most of rock's lovely ones.
Unfortunatelty making such an agreement fairly and without duress is difficult when you're not holding the cards, chop sticks and rubber hose.
Also: if the songs weren't fully formed/structured when you brought it to the band (as mentioned previously) they may have a case for having jammed/talked/knocked the songs into shape.
I'm pretty sure you can't avoid paying them a royalty for their performances based on sales of downloads or the CD UNLESS you specifically hired them for sessions only & as a backing band in performance. IF they undertook the recording & arranging as part of a band the assumptions are pretty obvious. Then again they may be working for you free of charge or commitment.
Here ya go:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...ng-composition/song-writing-arguement-332958/ (sic)
Here's another thread that addresses this topic that had a wide response and some terse words (not least from me) so you ought to have a squiz.
As Queen mentioned on an early song: "there's got to be a loser in the end..."
Just like the rhythm sections of The Jam, The Smiths, and a whole lot of somewhat impoverished non song writing pop people out there.

 

[VomitHatSteve]

That's why you record a demo copy of the song and copyright it before you bring it to the band. That way, it's pretty obvious who contributed what.

 

[grimtraveller]

Witz' answer demonstrates just how much of a minefield and quagmire this issue can be. How do you percentagize the creation of a song ? Einstein and Pythagoras would have problems achieving that !
In a thread from last year, Armistice cited Suzanne Vega's band as an example of how much a band adds to the song. I spent a few days a couple of weeks ago listening to her first three albums and on the second one in particular {Solitude standing}, there is much more of a band dynamic and it shows in the songs. Like him, I would be fascinated to know how much of those songs were a fait accompli on her part and how much the band contributed. I find it hard to believe she contributed all the musical ideas. As an instrumentalist I can see that the things the bassist and drummer does are the kind of things that spring from the players of those instruments. Maybe I'm being silly but I just don't believe on a song like "Wooden Horse", Suze went up to the drummer and said "I want this pattern and make sure you accentuate the interplay between these two toms !". But it's a cucial aspect of the song.
It's interesting the OP mentions "Bob Marley and the Wailers". Many of the songs that ended up on the Wailers latter albums for Island were written and recorded many years earlier and are available on these cheapo cassettes. For me, having heard them, what is immediately striking is how bland and samey many of the songs are. A classic like "Natural mystic", when stripped of the bass, drums, horns etc, with just the "song", his vocal and the chikka chikka guitar, it's like a different song. Reggae from the old days is actually a good example of how much "supporting elements" like backing vocals, bass lines, drum patterns, horns etc can add to a melody and chikka chikka rhythm guitar that is, the way the law works, the song. The Wailers' bass player, Aston "Family man" Barrett was, a few years ago, suing the Marley estate for royalties. He claimed that he had been the bands' musical director, meaning that he knocked those songs into shape. Having heard what some of them sound like without anything else but Marley singing & playing guitar, I think he may have more than a point.

 

[witzendoz]

I will tell you this about royalties and copyright.

It is good to sort this out to everyones satisfaction right at the beginning. There is nothing worse than busting up friendships, bands and paying lawyers a lot of money at a later date. Music history is full of these stories. Get it all sorted now so everyone is happy and get on with making music. If you can't sort this out by talking it through then the band won't last anyway. When it's sorted register the copyright as agreed, done.

Alan.

 

[Chili]

In this case, it's pretty cut and dry. You go to the band with a song, you play it and sing it to them. Well, it's already written, isn't it? So that's it... done, that song was yours before you even walked in the door. If they add drums or bass or counter-melody, they still don't get songwriting credits. It was already a song. If they balk, tell them you already registered the copyright long before bringing it to them. It takes a while (months or years) before getting a certificate from the copyright office.

They should get performance credit if they play on the recording that sells copies or play at live shows.

 

[witzendoz]

It takes a while (months or years) before getting a certificate from the copyright office.

That's slow, in Oz once you are a member of APRA (which is free to song writers) you can register a song anytime.

However if you want to protect someone from ripping off a song by changing it's name, etc. The easy way is to put a recording of the song (a demo from a hand held recorder will do) in a sealed post pack and mail it to yourself. When it arrives leave it sealed and put it in a safe place. If someone steels your song you go to the court with your sealed pack and the judge will open it and you have the proof you wrote it before the date on the postmark. The other party has to prove that they wrote it before that date.

Alan.

 

[Chili]

However if you want to protect someone from ripping off a song by changing it's name, etc. The easy way is to put a recording of the song (a demo from a hand held recorder will do) in a sealed post pack and mail it to yourself. When it arrives leave it sealed and put it in a safe place. If someone steels your song you go to the court with your sealed pack and the judge will open it and you have the proof you wrote it before the date on the postmark. The other party has to prove that they wrote it before that date.

Unfortunately, that is not a recognized method of copyright protection in the US. Maybe elsewhere in the world it is, but not here.

Here's an excerpt from the US Copyright office website:

The practice of sending a copy of your own work to yourself is sometimes called a “poor man’s copyright.” There is no provision in the copyright law regarding any such type of protection, and it is not a substitute for registration.

Any judge will only uphold the current law and not legislate new ones from the bench. At least they are not supposed to.....

 

[Armistice]

That's slow, in Oz once you are a member of APRA (which is free to song writers) you can register a song anytime.

However if you want to protect someone from ripping off a song by changing it's name, etc. The easy way is to put a recording of the song (a demo from a hand held recorder will do) in a sealed post pack and mail it to yourself. When it arrives leave it sealed and put it in a safe place. If someone steels your song you go to the court with your sealed pack and the judge will open it and you have the proof you wrote it before the date on the postmark. The other party has to prove that they wrote it before that date.

Alan.

Thanks for reminding me... I should register with APRA and my bandmate and I should sort this stuff out... you're right, best before we're the next big thing... any day now...

 

[rayc]

I just finished signing with APRA. Read carefully though because if you tick the box about streaming audio they'll try to collect from Soundclick etc etc & that'll blow the terms of membership with those places.
The process took about 15 mins & requires bank account details so they can pay royalties in.
ALSO you really need an ABN if you expect to get any royalties they chase up OR they'll have to withold 46% until tax return time. That's not their fault - it's the way or tax system is set up. I don't expect, at thios stage, to get any money so have opted for the no ABN set up but would sort that if things changed.