Songwriting: Craft, art, or both?

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jeff0633

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Hi
I read the huge thread about formulas in song writing, and it seems that this subject was not discussed deeply enough. To me, it is the melody that makes the hook (that thing that you sing in your head after you hear a song). I am a guitar player for 25 years, and I play live here in the Knoxville area. I have a bedroom studio, and I am presently in a song writing drought. I have tried and tried to here the different ways that song writers come up with great songs, but that formula, if there is one, still alludes me.

First, there is almost certainly a formula, but this can be unknown to the artists. For instance, Lennon's songs sounded nothing like McCartney's to me. Paul did many ballads, and used many minor chords in his songs, and his melidies seemed to fit a certain way over those chords, and the same with Lennon. If you say that there is no formula, then wouldn't half of John's songs sound exactly like Pauls? Now if you say, no, because John was John, and he was expressing himself in a certain way, then isn't that the formula? Let's look at some of Pauls songs. Yesterday is a beautiful melody over top of a variety of minor chords. There was a unique way he had of fitting his melodies over his chords. Lennons seemed not to be such complicated melodies, but he could still get great hooks. Now, lets look at "the long and winding road"? can you not see the certain "style" or formula here" Can't you see that these two are clearly written by the same person, just as clearly as Strawberry fileds, and revolution are also written by the same person. Yes, it's personality, but the personality makes them write in certain ways. And as soon as you say "Certain ways", then you are also saying formulas.

I have heard many song writers say that they use certain notes in a scale in a certain way, and that's what I want to know. I have seen Lionel Richy (spelling) writing on his pianno. I have also seen McCartney doing this. They explore certain notes in the scale, and they would write it down when they came upon a hook or something they liked. I have heard others say to avoid certain notes in your melodies, like 4ths or something. Let's look at Fleetwood Mac. That girl (the blonde) keyboard player writes a certain way, and I have heard her say that she writes on her pianno. Her melodies sound a lot like McM\Cartneys in some ways, though not as complicated. Let's take two of her songs. "You make lovin fun", and that other one that I like "When the lovin starts and the lights go down" Don't know the title to that one. Can you not see how similar these songs are? It seems as if she has a certain set of notes in the major scale that she uses, or a certain way of fitting her melodies over her chord progressins. Stevie Nicks, on the other hand, sounds totally different. These song writers may not even know they use any certain formula, it just may be natural to them. Remember lennon's song Sexy Sadie? Why were Lennons songs so consistent, and the same for these other writers? The one thing I can find that is consitent with all these folks is that their melodies seem to fit against their chord progressions in a consistent way. Lennon may have simply used certain notes in each guitar chord that he hit. McCartney may have written his melodies firt, and then fit backing chords to the melodies. Again, I saw Lionel making a melody first, and there was no backing chords to it yet.

I have been searching and searching, and trying and trying. I am in a horrible song writting funk, and can't seem to get out of it.

Also, another problem I have is that I love so many different styles of music, I can't seem to settle on one. I can Watch a Zepplin concert, and be moved to write in that style, then I get on a Neil Young kick, and then I want to write that. One thing I do know, is that there are common threda to these peoples songs. I have heard from too many writers that there are certain notes you stay away from in a melody. I want to know these things.

Please, let's not start another flame war. Since music can be writen in notation, then that means the difference between Lennon and McCartney's songs can be shown on paper. There IS a musically distinct way that Lennons songs are created, and is the case with these other writers. Please help me to understand them.

Jeff
 
Jeff

"First, there is almost certainly a formula, but this can be unknown to the artists."---quoting you.

This to me make sense, I've been writing for about 15 years now, and if I have a formula, I don't know about it. I've given it alot of thought like you, and I really can't break it down to a formula.
Sometimes, I'll have the guitar in my hands and will be playing around with different sounds, get something I like and put words to it. Other times, I'll get a line in my head that sounds cool, and I'll run with it. Knowing this about myself, I find it hard to say that there is a formula. However, I'm no Lennon, McCartney, Lionel Ritchie, Christine Mcvie or Stevie Nicks. This may mean that they've got the formula that I need, but I'm not gonna give up expressing my feelings the way I want to, so I can fit into a successful sonwriting formula.
-Joe(another country heard from)
 
(This is all opinion based despite how preachy it might sound...please forgive that aspect of this rant as I just finished work and I'm bloody tired :D )

Everyone has a 'formula', the difference is whether you consciously seek to use one, or whether you just go with it. I think the second you start trying to label something (whether it be as 'art' or 'craft' or something more specific), you're putting it into a box and attributing certain characteristics to it. I guess that works for some people, but I personally prefer to not call it anything. This way I'm not trying to make it fit into any particular category and thereby limiting the creative process in some way.

Thats how *I* look at it and how *I* like to work. Call it whatever makes you feel the best about doing it. Creativity is subjective.
 
jeff0633 said:
To me, it is the melody that makes the hook (that thing that you sing in your head after you hear a song).

First, there is almost certainly a formula, but this can be unknown to the artists.

I have heard many song writers say that they use certain notes in a scale in a certain way, and that's what I want to know.

Also, another problem I have is that I love so many different styles of music, I can't seem to settle on one. I can Watch a Zepplin concert, and be moved to write in that style, then I get on a Neil Young kick, and then I want to write that. One thing I do know, is that there are common threda to these peoples songs.

Jeff
First off, I disagree that the melody is the hook. To me the "hook" is almost always a rythmical surprise that breaks the anticipated rythm of a phrase and resolves it in some way.

Secondly, I think you are confusing "formula" with an artist's "style". If you recognize a drawing by Escher becuase of his use of interlocking geometric figures or morphing animal shapes, that is not derived from a "formula"... it is his signiture style. Same with Picasso. Same with Paul Simon. Same with John Lennon.
The Beatles had a very distintive style that included complex vocal harmonies. I can't count the times I've seen modern bands described as having "Beatle-esque" vocals! But this was their style.
Every artist's style is an amalgamation of things they have experienced and been influenced by. Back when I was a kid, we used to play this game on road-trips where someone would name a mundane object, like a shoe or a brick or a comb, and everyone had to tell one story of some memory they have regarding that object. Everyone has a different story for "brick". Ditto "shoe". Every artist creates in a different way, becuase they perceive things differently.

Next point... all notes are open game in any song as far as I'm concerned.

Next point... I have the same problem with wanting to write in too many styles. It's fine I guess if you want to be a song-writer, but if your trying to become a famous performer it seems like your better off sticking to one genre, at least until you have a name for yourself.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
 
More thoughts on an artist's style:

A songwriter will tend to arrange or pick notes based on their influences and the way they "hear" things, or the way the perceive things should be, and that musical sense is built on all the influences and experiences they have had in their lives. That's way a Paul Simon song generally sounds just like a Paul Simon song, and a Prince song sounds like a Prince song, and a John Denver song sounds like a John Denver song, and a .....

Even when an artist tries to write in a different style or against the grain, they often still sound like who they are just becuase it's so hard to get away from yourself. That's why collaboration can be such a great thing, and often yeild results where the total is greater than the sum of the parts.... Lennon/ McCartney i.e., or Simon/ Garfunkle, or Page/ Plant... etc.
Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
 
Each writer has some formula, even if they don't realize it - and that formula is dictated by our musical weaknesses.

Most writers tend to write melody lines that can be covered by that writers vocal range. The harmony and rhythem lines will be limited by the writers understanding and embracement of music theory.

Thus our formula may be very simple (3 chords with a 7 note melody range) or very complex (use of many chords and passing tones with a 2 octave melody).

I use to think that songs I wrote on keys (with a focus on melody/harmony) were siginicantly different than songs written on guitar (riff oriented) vs. songs developed form a drum part (groove oriented). While indeed my keyboard songs tend to lean more toward ballads/jazz type material and my guitar songs lean more toward rock/funk - I have noticed certain melodic phrases that reflect my "style" or more specific my "vocal/musical limitations"

This tends to really hit home when I am working on a new tune and my wife (who's had to endure 27 years of my writing) will comment "that sounds like such and such song" (maybe something I'd written years ago).

I think collaboration is the best way to develop better "formulas" - however collaboration requires a much different mentality - since it can be much more humbling to have someone disect your ideas.
 
I guess it depends on your intent. I can see all that being true if you are a performer and you plan on doing your own material. However, if you are songwriter looking to sell yuor songs, you aren't thinking in terms of what you personally can perform, but rather what the song needs.

As far as theory goes, a lack of knowledge I woudn't call a "formula", but rather a "handicap" or "ignorance". It certainly is a limitation. However, someone that knows theory very deeply may choose to write a 3 chord song, and there you might have something approaching a "formula".

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
 
Aaron,

I agree that lack of theory is a handicap or ignorance, but while that may not be a specific effort at formula it would dictate the style of writing - which perhaps could be interpreted as that writer's "formula'. I also agree that a very musically educated writer may choose to write a 3 chord song (certainly there are thousands of very good 3 chord songs written by very successful writers). which likely would fall more clearly into the term "formula".

While I agree that a writer who writes for themself would almost always have to write melody within that writer's limitations - I have found that most writers even when writing for someone else often tend to think melody in terms of what they can perceive (ie: what they can do).

I think it is a talented writer indeed who can step outside of thier own "box" and write completely for someone else. Obviously there are many successful writers who have done that, but I doubt it reflects the majority of writers.
 
Good discussion. I think formulas, like anything else can cut both ways. They can work for you and they can keep you from progressing in your writing if you're not careful. Like most writers, I can pretty well identify the instrument a song or composition is written on simply by listening to it. McCartney is a great example. The songs he has written on piano are completely different theory-wise from what he has written using guitar.

Every writer has a touch, a favorite progression or run he/she uses over and over again with minor changes, if any. This works great for awhile, but sooner or later it gets old and you're publisher or co-writers start dropping hints that it's time to find another progression. Linda Ronstadt and her songwriters made careers out of the simple, but dramatic chord change from F to D. It's worked well for her ever since "Silver Threads & Golden Needles" right up through the Trio album with "High Sierra".

I'm all for formulas and anything else which helps get songs written, but we always have to be careful that tools don't become crutches.
 
The more you know about constructing lyrics, melodies and all the conventions of songwriting, the more tools you have at your disposal. Its that aspect that is the craft. Finding a really worthwhile idea and coming up with a way to execute it successfully is the art part.

My personal feeling is that too many people that call themselves writers never take the time to really study the nuts and bolts and their songs are full of cliches and mistakes that could be avoided.

All the study in the world won't automatically make you a great songwriter, but it doesn't hurt. The way to improve is to write all the time. Study and dissect other songs. Read. Write some more. Along the way, you'll have little breakthroughs until, one day you'll have a body of work that you are proud of. Sometimes that means writing a bunch of crap to get to the good stuff--so be it. No shame in that. Just don't quit and you will eventually dig deep enough to find the gold.
 
"a horrible funk"

...almost sounds like a title to me. I don't mind using formulas or something like a formula as long as my songs don't end up sounding formulaic. My first rule of songwriting is that it has to be exciting to ME. If it bores me while I'm writing it or if I finish it & go "ho hum" it goes in the trash.

I have a fun trick that I use sometimes. You were talking about Lennon & McCartney. In the Beatles Anthology McCartney talks about songwriting & says they would often start with a title & go from there. I do the same thing. My fun trick is this, write out the alphabet on a piece of paper with each letter getting one line. Write a word or phrase that sounds like it would make a cool song title for each letter of the alphabet (you can cheat with X) ie;

A Horrible Funk
Beat Battle
Crash & Burn
Devil Loves You
Easy For You to Say

etc.

You get the idea. I've written dozens of alphabets & gotten several keepers out of it. It's not guaranteed but like I say, it's a fun trick. Other than that, if you've been searching & trying & searching & trying, lay off for a while. Give yourself a break. Take a week or a month or whatever off of writing songs or playing your instruments. When you come back to it after not doing it for a while it will feel fresh again.

If you're worried about writing in various styles I say screw it. Don't get down on yourself for being a writer of breadth & scope. After all the White Album is not exactly consistent as far as style is it? I used to worry about this too but now I don't fight it, I embrace it.

Love on
-small
 
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