Song Writing arguement

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So my friend and I have kinda gone back and forth on this. Basically it seems the basic (general) way to write a song starts with a chord progression.

I really enjoy writing out entire songs with vocal melody when an idea smacks me in the face while Im busy showering, watching tv, driving, etc.....

He basically says I am jumping ahead and doing it wrong.

His way is to come up with a chord progression and then write and sing the melody to the chord progression.

I feel it kinda boxes me in because Im not much of a guitar player.

Do vocalists usually do it my way or his way!!!!!?
 
So my friend and I have kinda gone back and forth on this. Basically it seems the basic (general) way to write a song starts with a chord progression.

I really enjoy writing out entire songs with vocal melody when an idea smacks me in the face while Im busy showering, watching tv, driving, etc.....

He basically says I am jumping ahead and doing it wrong.

His way is to come up with a chord progression and then write and sing the melody to the chord progression.

I feel it kinda boxes me in because Im not much of a guitar player.

Do vocalists usually do it my way or his way!!!!!?

Everybody has varying opinions on this. For me I write the lyrics, turn that into a melody, then add chords. So I'm somewhat like you. Not sure where the lyrics and melody come into play for you as you don't mention that specifically but it sounds similar. I'm limited in my chord knowledge so although I can find a melody within them, I don't have the melodic freedom and hear the same notes too often - and play the same chord patterns so I get stuck in a rut sometimes. Once I have the melody I find the chords to fit - and sometimes get a new and different pattern.
 
Which ever works for you is the right way.
Come up with a melody - you need chords to carry it.
Come up with chords - you need a melody to carry it.
Come up with a lyric - you need a melody to carry it.
Come up with the washing - you need a laundry basket to carry it.
 
I tend to be a "strum a chord -- hear a melody" kind of writer most times, and then from there it becomes of jumble of creativity. Sometimes the melody just pops out...sometimes a few verses of lyrics...sometimes I get all the chords worked out first with the melody in mind.

I'm recording tracks right now for a song that started out as a couple of chords and a specific kick/snare beat.

If you end up with a half decent song...whatever way you did it was the right way. :)
 
Your friend is being an ass. (Not "is" an ass, just being one.)

"Doing it wrong?" What kind of an arrogant statement is that? ALL my original songs started with lyrics first- some I had the melody in my head concurrently, but I, personally, have never written a chord progression and then wrote words and melody to fit it.

To paraphrase Yoda...

"Wrong? No! There is either song, or no song. There is no wrong."
 
Okay. Everything seems pretty simple. Do it how I want and cover all bases. Just so I can understand completely................

Lets say a band finds a killer vocalist BUT he has no experience with guitar or anything. How do THEY write songs?
 
Plenty of top bands have a collaborative approach to writing - as others have said there is noright or wrong only what works for you as an individual. We all look for when and where our muse is strongest some do it alone some with bands. Often jamming either with lyrics a chord progression or a beat box will work. Tell your mate to get over himself.
 
Lets say a band finds a killer vocalist BUT he has no experience with guitar or anything. How do THEY write songs?

If a killer vocalist can write, but can't play an instrument, he or she can sit down with someone who can (e.g. another band member). He can sing the tune, and the guitarist can try out chords until they work out something that fits. It's not that hard.
 
Often jamming either with lyrics a chord progression or a beat box will work. Tell your mate to get over himself.

I plan to!

He can sing the tune, and the guitarist can try out chords until they work out something that fits. It's not that hard.

Great
 
I write lyrics and chord progressions but have no melodies in me (other than te root notes of the chords). I record a basic track and send it with a set of lyrics to a singer who then comes up with a melody (other than the root notes of the chords) & records it. With me, because melody is so important, the singer gets a co-writing credit for the music.
 
Okay. Everything seems pretty simple. Do it how I want and cover all bases. Just so I can understand completely................

Lets say a band finds a killer vocalist BUT he has no experience with guitar or anything. How do THEY write songs?

The other band members can write the songs. Lots of bands share songwriting duties across the board. Look at Rush...Neil Peart writes the majority of their lyrics. Anthrax...Charlie Benante (drummer) is, I believe, the primary songwriter. I always think the best bands are ones that write collectively and collaboratively. They would most certainly be the most fun to be involved with.

Why not you do it your way, your friend does it his way and you guys help each other out when needed? Letting arguments get in the way of a possible songwriting partnership is just sad.

With me, because melody is so important, the singer gets a co-writing credit for the music.

Legally, they should get that anyways. Regardless of your feelings on the subject. Lyrics and melody are what is copyrighted, not chord progressions. You're both contributing half of the song.
 
I'm doing it both way.

One of song start with chord progression (I play guitar) from chorus then develop the verse later etc...

While another song, I write the lyric first.... then get chord then the melody comes...

Lately, I got the melody first then some lyrics (not yet completed) then the chord progression, I'm planning to complete the lyrics later.

So it's all about freedom and flexibilty. Music is an art remember? :guitar:
 
Funkdaddy,
Yes, you are correct about what should be, but isn't always, the case. I was trying to make the point without a pointy end. We could also discuss the part an arrangement plays in making a song and the related "ownership' of parts & the whole - the Sex Pistols were very clear on that and put a lot of their peers to shame.
 
Funkdaddy,
Yes, you are correct about what should be, but isn't always, the case. I was trying to make the point without a pointy end. We could also discuss the part an arrangement plays in making a song and the related "ownership' of parts & the whole - the Sex Pistols were very clear on that and put a lot of their peers to shame.

Not really. If you collaborate on a song you have to decide amongst yourselves what the split should be, but copyright sees a song as lyrics and melody, so stating you give the melodist 50% authorship as if you're doing him a favor is a little off, melody is half of the writing credit to begin with. I don't really understand the Sex Pistols reference. Arrangement is not copyrighted as far as I know (and maybe our definitions of what "arrangement" is differ). But I am far from a lawyer :)
 
Below is a quick snapshot of (Australian) copyright information. An arrangement can be protected by copyright, but that is a different copyright to that of the music and lyrics (note that these can be separate copyrights as well).

My understanding, though, is the same as FunkDaddy's, i.e. copyright of a musical work is on the melody and the lyrics, and the chords are irrelevant.

http://www.copyright.com.au/assets/documents/Print%20Music.pdf
 
Funkdaddy,
I wasn't trying to be patronizing. You wewren't trying either - it seems we both succeeded at something we weren't trying for.

I was stating what I do automatically - demonstrating by example - my feelings on the subject are subjective but are consistent with law. Australian law does not separate melody from the "music".

In your second post you seem to equivocate: collaborators should determine the split by agreement. I was making a case for what I felt should be but isn't always the case.
Now, you additional text suggests that perhaps it shouldn't be but could be varied by agreement/negotiation/ or even the demand of the most powerful party involved.

With me the melodic creator gets co-writer credit. Sorry, perhaps I should have stated emphatically that anyone not automatically crediting the melodist is corrupt and should have a good hard look at them selves whilst simultaneously pulling up their socks and holding their head up. I wanted to make the point, in context and without a mallet, that the melody is a significant part of the composition and its creation deserves recognition/acknowledgement/etc.

Arrangements do have copyright status in Australia. I didn't comment in terms of law because THE LAW DIFFERS in some instances from one state to another & at least from one nation to another.

Back to the point I tried to make in the in a previous post. I make sure I give credit. Sorry, perhaps I shouldn't do, shouldn't say, shouldn't comment. Music generally, & popular music in particular, is littered with unacknowledged co-writing credits. I'm just trying to do the right thing - I hadn't factored in your interpretation of my motivations.

Inference and implication are different things I know. I might have commented that FunkDaddy as a name could be seen as patronising, appropriationist, wildly ironic or cool. I don't know enough of you as yet to make that kind of judgement.

However, you do have my thanks for summing up my personal politics so succinctly albiet possibly prematurely.

Oh, the Pistols - band co-writing credit across the board.

Gek, did you read what you alinked to?
"Copyright law in Australia protects musical works, any accompanying lyrics, the published edition and sound recordings...The arrangement of music that is under copyright is protected separately from the
music itself...For a sound recording of a musical work, the rights include copying that recording
and playing it in public."
I read this as music, lyrics, arrangement, performance & recording though not necessarily in the one bundle. The definition of music isn't given but if I were to write a riff & record it it would be covered by copyright. I wouldn't have to transcribe it as a melody to obtain such. (which notes would I use if I were to write a melody of the riff - that would be crucial in a legal case wouldn't it?)

With me, I ride my motorcycle on the left hand side of the road because the safety of other road users is important - oh, wait, that was a little off. I ONLY do it because the coppers will book me if I don't. In NO WAY should my riding on the left be interpreted as me complying with or agreeing to a convention or logical process for any reason other than being legally compelled to do so. Morality, personal ethics and such have no place in a society that sets rules and my claiming to have a position in conjunction with, in advance of, or beyond, those rules can be seen as nothing other that a low act of self aggrandisement by a base born curr commited to self promotion and personal enhancement.
 
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Gek, did you read what you alinked to?
yep
"Copyright law in Australia protects musical works, any accompanying lyrics, the published edition and sound recordings...The arrangement of music that is under copyright is protected separately from the
music itself...For a sound recording of a musical work, the rights include copying that recording
and playing it in public."
yep again. That's what I said here: "An arrangement can be protected by copyright, but that is a different copyright to that of the music and lyrics (note that these can be separate copyrights as well)."

I read this as music, lyrics, arrangement, performance & recording though not necessarily in the one bundle.
yep. I can write some lyrics, and protect that with copyright. You can write the melody, protect that, then another person can come up with an arrangement and protect that.

The definition of music isn't given but if I were to write a riff & record it it would be covered by copyright.
yep . . . to the extent that a riff can be regarded as a melody.

I wouldn't have to transcribe it as a melody to obtain such.
A recording is sufficient. Transcription onto a bit of paper is not a requirement.
(which notes would I use if I were to write a melody of the riff - that would be crucial in a legal case wouldn't it?)
I think I'm starting to lose you here. A riff is a melody. Both are a musical sequence of notes, though a riff is generally a very short sequence. A melody is not a transcription of the riff, but a score is. In any case, what is crucial is the relationship of notes to each other in a melody, rather than the actual notes. For example, the melody of Three Blind Mice is independent of the key in which it is played. You can start off the melody with a C, or a G or whatever,the notes are different, but the relationship is them same. Is that what you were getting at?
 
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Ah, looks like I was making an argument out of a misinterpretation on my part, sorry about that :) Guess that's the problem with Internet discussions, particularly with people you haven't talked to before.

And yes, collaborators SHOULD have a co-writing agreement that plainly states the nuts and bolts of their split. Even if it is 50/50 between a melodist and a lyricist. I'm working with an artist, we both bring songs of every state to the table...some just lyrics (and some of her poetry which I rewrite into lyrics), some melody and lyric ideas, some just general ideas. I tend to polish all of it into the finished product. To make it simple I stated from the get-go, that whatever we worked on together would be a 50/50 split. If I write a song for her that she has no part of, I retain full writing credit. It's just best to make it clear right off the bat, even if it is implied. Always good to have documents for stuff like that.

And I do believe gek was informing us (or me rather) that Australian copyright law can apply to arrangements (which I wasn't aware of), but it's a separate copyright from the song (melody + lyrics). That's what I gathered from his post.
 
Firstly, to the OP, there are many ways of writing songs. Instrumentalists will often (though not exclusively always) write on their instrument and often, like Miroslav says of himself, the chords or sequence of notes "suggests" melodies which in turn one can fit words and phrases to. That's been the most common way I've written songs in the 30 years I've been doing so.
Or you come up with various segments and join them up.
Over the last couple of years though, I've been coming up with more pieces like the OP. I'll be driving around and out of nowhere, a melody will jump into my head. And at traffic light stops, a few words here and there. I'll have no idea of the key but I'll hum them into my dictaphone. When I eventually get around to working out the song, I'll often stick with that key that I hummed into the dictaphone in, especially as it'll often be in unusual keys for me like C#, F# or B.
{Mind you, I'll cheat and work it out on guitar with a capo !}.
Or I'll put it in whatever key sounds good at that moment.
Another way I've come up in the past with bag loads of songs has been in jam sessions. And because I've always been the keeper of the flame {ie, the tapes}, I'd work out loads of songs from various passages. 99% of the time, the guy drumming has totally forgotten about it or even if I've asked them to repeat particular flourishes and they haven't/can't, I'll still give them a co credit even though the bass part, guitar, lyrics, melody and arrangement are all essentially mine. Why ? Because in those instances, the genesis of the song came about when two of us were playing and even though the drum patterns in the finished song may bear no relation to what was originally played and the musical melodies were mine, I see the music as a whole. And it took that moment of the two of us or three of us doing what we were doing for that piece to begin it's existence.
 
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