Song Dynamics and levels

[JDOD]

Regular tone threaders know I like typical clean verse heavy chorus grunge... I've noticed something when attempting to use EZDrummer (cheers miner).

I'm generally using quite high velocity snare hits cos the sound the best, so when programming I generally start with everything pretty high velocity and then bring some hits down to add a bit of realism..

Now, when applying this to one of my previous songs I've noticed that the drums sound great in the verse but go quiet in the chorus.. Would this be cos my previous mix had the chorus guitars mixed too loud and I'd used louder drums for the chorus to compensate so I should start by remixing my guitars... Or should I be using lower velocity drums for my verse.. I find lower velocity drums sound a bit shit though. Now I'm using EZDrummer I'm in a position where my drums are at a similar volume through the song, which is probably a good thing so I'm thinking that I should remix the guitars along with the drums.

 

[Bubba po]

Can't you automate the volume like you would on a printed track?

 

[Greg_L]

Regular tone threaders know I like typical clean verse heavy chorus grunge... I've noticed something when attempting to use EZDrummer (cheers miner).

I'm generally using quite high velocity snare hits cos the sound the best, so when programming I generally start with everything pretty high velocity and then bring some hits down to add a bit of realism..

Now, when applying this to one of my previous songs I've noticed that the drums sound great in the verse but go quiet in the chorus.. Would this be cos my previous mix had the chorus guitars mixed too loud and I'd used louder drums for the chorus to compensate so I should start by remixing my guitars... Or should I be using lower velocity drums for my verse.. I find lower velocity drums sound a bit shit though. Now I'm using EZDrummer I'm in a position where my drums are at a similar volume through the song, which is probably a good thing so I'm thinking that I should remix the guitars along with the drums.

Your thinking is on the right track. Think about any run-of-the-mill grunge song. Like you said, they typically have a lot of soft verse, loud chorus shit going on. But what are the drums doing? Most of the time, the drummer is still whacking away. He might go soft on the hats or ride cymbal, but the kick, snare, tom hits are still pretty powerful. It's the guitars that drop out or soften up. So keep the drums at mostly the same level and tailor your dynamics with the guitars.

"Smells Like Teen Spirit" could be you template. It's a quintessential grunge rock song. What are the drums doing in the verses? Grohl is still pounding them pretty hard. He lightens up on the hats and simplifies the beat, but he's still whacking the snare pretty good. The kick is full force. Then in the chorus the guitars come in and he goes crash riding all over the place. He ups the intensity of the drumming, but they're not necessarily louder. It's the raging guitars and more rambunctious drumming that kick the song into high gear.

 

[JDOD]

Cheers, that's what I thought. Just wanted to get an opinion before I go remixing guitars next week. It's the Pillars Remix 2 which you did say was pretty decent so before I fuck with it any further information wanted to make sure I was fucking with it in the right direction... I'm also procrastinating about doing the vocals

 

[minerman]

Welcome to the wonderful world of drum programming Jdude...

Just try to think of your fake drums as being a real kit dude. Greg & Rami both always tell me to think like you're playing the drums yourself...

 

[Nola]

Regular tone threaders know I like typical clean verse heavy chorus grunge... I've noticed something when attempting to use EZDrummer (cheers miner).

I'm generally using quite high velocity snare hits cos the sound the best, so when programming I generally start with everything pretty high velocity and then bring some hits down to add a bit of realism..

Now, when applying this to one of my previous songs I've noticed that the drums sound great in the verse but go quiet in the chorus.. Would this be cos my previous mix had the chorus guitars mixed too loud and I'd used louder drums for the chorus to compensate so I should start by remixing my guitars... Or should I be using lower velocity drums for my verse.. I find lower velocity drums sound a bit shit though. Now I'm using EZDrummer I'm in a position where my drums are at a similar volume through the song, which is probably a good thing so I'm thinking that I should remix the guitars along with the drums.

it really depends. and do you have anything like compression on the master buss?

since you like the sound of the snare hit at 100%, i'd use the snare's fader (so leave the midi at full velocity if you like it, then automate the fader volume for dynamics). I'd also make some like 95% velocity just for variety. You can maybe try doubling the track for volume or exporting midi as audio and putting compression on it to mess with the dynamics.

 

[minerman]

since you like the sound of the snare hit at 100%, i'd use the snare's fader (so leave the midi at full velocity if you like it, then automate the fader volume for dynamics). I'd also make some like 95% velocity just for variety. You can maybe try doubling the track for volume or exporting midi as audio and putting compression on it to mess with the dynamics.

This could work, but myself I wouldn't use 100% velocity all the time, in fact, I never use 100% at all on snare (& kick for that matter) hits. Using 100% velocity on all the hits is a sure-fire way to have machine-gun, really fake sounding programmed drums...

What I do is have the snare's hits higher during a chorus or lead break, because most drummers would play a little harder during those parts. I like to leave "headroom" in the velocity so it never maxes out, & I can always raise a few hits' velocity here/there if I ever need to...That's just me though...

Back to the velocity thing though, a real snare sounds different when it's hit harder/softer, & these drum samples do react in a similar way with different levels of velocity. A real snare's pitch, timbre, etc., all sound different when it's hit hard/soft, so it's basically the same thing with samples, although it's nowhere near as apparent...

And as always, YMMV...

 

[Nola]

This could work, but myself I wouldn't use 100% velocity all the time, in fact, I never use 100% at all on snare (& kick for that matter) hits. Using 100% velocity on all the hits is a sure-fire way to have machine-gun, really fake sounding programmed drums...

What I do is have the snare's hits higher during a chorus or lead break, because most drummers would play a little harder during those parts. I like to leave "headroom" in the velocity so it never maxes out, & I can always raise a few hits' velocity here/there if I ever need to...That's just me though...

Back to the velocity thing though, a real snare sounds different when it's hit harder/softer, & these drum samples do react in a similar way with different levels of velocity. A real snare's pitch, timbre, etc., all sound different when it's hit hard/soft, so it's basically the same thing with samples, although it's nowhere near as apparent...

And as always, YMMV...

i agree, but since he likes that sound of the hard hit and doesn't want to go softer, it doesn't leave many options.

 

[Robus]

Totally agree with minerman's last post. Setting the velocity of a drum hit close to 100% means your MIDI note will trigger a sample of a drum that was slammed. That's only one of a number of samples of that drum in that sample set, but that's the one you will hear.

If you make a track where all your snares, say, were recorded at 100%, then you will be hearing the very same sample played back again and again and again. It becomes monotonous. Even if you vary the level of the playback to achieve more natural dynamics, it will sound weird because all the notes--loud or soft--will be triggering the same sample of a drum being slammed.

I vary velocity a lot. I go to 100% on only the loudest notes--say the loudest hit in a snare fill. I get way down low on the softer parts. As to what will sound good on a particular track, only one way to find out.

As minerman said, welcome to the wonderful world of MIDI drum programming. A right pain in the ass is what it is. On any give song of mine, I'll have 3-4 times the number of hours in the drum programming that I have in all the recorded guitars. After all that, the guitars will sound pretty great in my humble opinion. The programmed drums will sound passable, barely.

 

[minerman]

i agree, but since he likes that sound of the hard hit and doesn't want to go softer, it doesn't leave many options.

Well, there's always the option to treat it like a real kit. I'm sure the guys who use real drums would agree that a little eq, compression, etc goes a long way on your drum sounds...

Another thing I'll mention in regard to using drum samples is try not to over-process them. A little eq/compression would probably be fine, but it's really easy to go overboard using samples...Again, welcome to the wonderful world of drum programming....