Some mic questions and advice about room mics.

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benawhile

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Our band plays at home. We have amplified bass, drums, amplified guitars, sax and two vocals each with a small amp. (Mine is 50 watt.)
I have been trying to record us with a Tascam DR 07 hand held but the vocals are drowned out by the guitarists. It's not my rehearsal so I might cajole them by offering to get a better recording, so I have bought a Fame Mix 802 and want to get a couple more mics to close mic the vocal amps to balance us out, and run the mix into the Tascam, recording live only.
I am posting here to request suggestions for room mics.
When we rehearse we play in a circle facing the middle of the room.
I have done as much research as I can and think the best plan would be to use my Sure SM58s on the vocal amps and get two small diaphragm condenser mics and experiment with an X-Y stereo pattern for the room, (obvious problem: which way to point the mics?) and with placing the mics apart in the middle of the room using the 3:1 rule.
Does anyone have a comment on this?

In spite of my research about mics I have some outstanding questions:

Does an omni directional mic pick up from anywhere, even in the opposite direction to which it appears to be ″pointing″. Granted in practice there is some off axis loss with an omni, but theoretically should it have an axis at all? And if I placed it in the middle of a room, would it matter if I pointed it up, down , left , right?
Also from this, am I right to assume that you cannot record stereo with two close coupled omni mics, as they both pick up the same signal?
Does it work that if I place the mics apart I should use omni, and close together in X-Y I should use cardioid?
What feedback problems would I anticipate with omni condenser mics?

I am on a low budget, I am looking at the following mics so far: (Sweetwater website unless otherwise stated)

Small diaphragm:
Cardioid:
AKG perception 170
Behringer B5
A pair of Behringer C2
A pair of Behringer C4
Rode M3 (Dawsons)

Omni:
Naiant X O (Omni) (Own website)

Med diaphragm
Audio technica 2020

Large Diaphragm
Behringer C1 (Cardioid)
Behringer C3 (any direction)

May I request comments on the suitability of these mics?
 
For high quality at a low price, I would certainly look at the Line Audio OM1 (omni) and CM3 (cardioid).

Excellent quality at a very affordable price.
 
I wouldn't worry about geting a stereo sound if you are all pointing towards the center of the room.
To get a balanced sound to the recording mic, it has to sound balanced at that place. We recorded our practices similarly in my last Beatles band.
Record a song, or two if they are very different sounding, then listen to the recordings (plug the recorder into an amp so all can hear), then figure out what needs to be changed - vocal up, lead guitar down, etc. Record again, listen again. It's not ideal, and is time consuming, but is the easiest solution - and practicing the same songs until they ar eperfect is not a bad idea anyway. You're never going to get a balanced sound by trying to reocrd the vocals wiht mics on the amps and a separate mic for the instruments.
You could record just the instruments, though - still need to get a good balance - then transfer files to a computer and overtrack vocals on the computer.
 
Take a line out from the vocal/PA and put an omni mic in the middle of the room. Pan them hard left/right and record to separate tracks. Mix to mono, with the omni mic track as the foundation and filling in the vocals with the other track.
 
mjbphotos said:
I wouldn't worry about geting a stereo sound if you are all pointing towards the center of the room.
To get a balanced sound to the recording mic, it has to sound balanced at that place. We recorded our practices similarly in my last Beatles band.
Record a song, or two if they are very different sounding, then listen to the recordings (plug the recorder into an amp so all can hear), then figure out what needs to be changed - vocal up, lead guitar down, etc. Record again, listen again. It's not ideal, and is time consuming, but is the easiest solution - and practicing the same songs until they ar eperfect is not a bad idea anyway. You're never going to get a balanced sound by trying to reocrd the vocals wiht mics on the amps and a separate mic for the instruments.
You could record just the instruments, though - still need to get a good balance - then transfer files to a computer and overtrack vocals on the computer.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike. I was envisioning something like boulder guy below is suggesting.
Why would I not get a balance with the mic'd vocal amps and separate instrument set up?
Would it make a difference if I took the line from the vocal amps?
 
benawhile said:
Why would I not get a balance with the mic'd vocal amps and separate instrument set up?
Click to expand...

The direct signal from the mic is going to be much cleaner and clearer. Unlike with guitars where the amplification is part of the sound, vocal amplification in a rehearsal space doesn't usually make them sound better.

Most PA speakers are at least 2-way, with a woofer and a tweeter. To capture the sound properly you need to place the mic at least a few feet out from the speaker, and then you'll start getting bleed from the band plus room sound. A line out from the PA will avoid all of those problems.

benawhile said:
Would it make a difference if I took the line from the vocal amps?
Click to expand...

It would help to know some details about your "vocal amps". What make/model? How many? How are things connected?
 
I would concentrate on how it sounds in the room, before thinking about getting new mics, it takes a lot of work moving mics around before you can get good sounds, it's never easy, if you can never get it to sound good in that room then the room isn't good enough, it's not the mics and often not the equipment, acoustics and physics play a key role here
 
Ah, thanks for the info about the mic'd versus line out p a, that makes sense to me now.
Regrettably we don't even have a proper p a, I use a single Marshall ASR 50, my mate uses something slightly bigger that he plugs his guitar into as well, not sure what it is.
Like I said, it's not my rehearsal and I won't get much cooperation to make big changes, I just wanted to try some extra kit to try to improve the vocal recording. But if I can get any result at all I might get more cooperation.
 
Btyre2013 said:
I would concentrate on how it sounds in the room, before thinking about getting new mics, it takes a lot of work moving mics around before you can get good sounds, it's never easy, if you can never get it to sound good in that room then the room isn't good enough, it's not the mics and often not the equipment, acoustics and physics play a key role here
Click to expand...

+1

If the guitars are too loud then point their amps at the guitarists so they turn them down. Doing this will actually help the band develop a more cohesive sound and will help immensely when you actually start playing out. Tilt the Amps up at the guitarists ears not at their knees like most guitarists play.
 
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