Solid State Recording

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cobaltblue

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Hello, not posted for a while hope all are well.

Ive been having a brainstorm today and thinking about increasing disk write speeds

Now, Solid state drives are waaaay expensive at the moment so I was thinking would you be able to utilise solid state in a cheap way.

Here's my idea, use a 4 or 8gig SDcard with a firewire reader

Track each session to the SDCARD so you get the fast write speed per session, then afterwards you can transfer to your usual storage medium?

Is this a viable solution?
 
I don't know if your solution would be faster. It would have to be tested. As far as Solid State Drives are concerned, right now I wouldn't mess with them for a serious machine. It is cheaper and faster right now to just buy two quality large hard drives and run them RAID.
 
Hello, not posted for a while hope all are well.

Ive been having a brainstorm today and thinking about increasing disk write speeds

Now, Solid state drives are waaaay expensive at the moment so I was thinking would you be able to utilise solid state in a cheap way.

Here's my idea, use a 4 or 8gig SDcard with a firewire reader

Track each session to the SDCARD so you get the fast write speed per session, then afterwards you can transfer to your usual storage medium?

Is this a viable solution?

Your RAM does most of what you described, I think it would only increase performance when you initially load the project. Subsequent writing, processing, etc wouldn't be improved that much. But I could be wrong.
 
I Might be wrong but as i understood it if your recording audio in realtime it's constantly read/writing to the disk therefore faster r/w will improove stability and performance?
 
I Might be wrong but as i understood it if your recording audio in realtime it's constantly read/writing to the disk therefore faster r/w will improove stability and performance?

I think when your recording, it is written to the harddrive, and as a result has to pass through the RAM. Hence, I guess it will improve write speed, but as a result of it being in the RAM, it won't have to be re-accessed...

How many tracks do you record at one time? 12 max? I think even a 5400rpm harddrive could cope with that.
 
Indeed never above 12 at one time, I dont know whther a 5400 would cope with that and what the real diffewrence youd see with fatser drive access (even with decent RAM)

Be nice to do some bench tests
 
Right now SSD have great read speeds but even the best of them (Intels) are only at best on par with a 7200 RPM for the write speeds

My gaming rig has 4 hard RAIDed Intel SSDs and boots and loads like you wouldn't believe but for audio at this point it's not worth it the performance isn't there yet

If you need fast writes get Velociraptors, they'll beat any of the SSDs out there for track counts right now and you don't have the 40 GB restriction which is where the fastest of the SSDs are at right now

If you're recording less than 30 tracks there's no reason you shoulldn't be able to do so with a decent 7200 RPM drive with a 32MB cache
 
SSDs probably won't make much difference for recording. SSDs beat the pants off of hard drives for random reads and writes, but the access pattern for audio recording should be largely sequential.

As for flash cards, they are MUCH slower than SSDs. Even with a FireWire reader, they are a mere fraction of the speed of a hard drive, in my experience (and with a USB card reader, I could copy the bits off the card with an electron microscope and a toggle switch about as quickly :D ).

What makes SSDs fast is that they use a lot of flash parts in parallel. You could RAID 8-16 flash cards in FireWire readers and you might be able to pull off something useful, but really, what's the point?
 
SSDs beat the pants off of hard drives for random reads and writes, but the access pattern for audio recording should be largely sequential.
Recording yes, reading a mono or interleaved stereo yes, but playing back multitrack projects no. And this is where the increased read access speeds of SSDs would come into play, specially if you also use soft-samplers such as NI Kontakt that use DSD for accessing large sample libraries to conserve RAM.

There have been times were I've hit the hard disk read capacity even with modest track counts due to some intricate edits, where the disk was forced to jump around to read non-contiguous portions of audio files. In these situations SSD disks would definitely be handy.
 
Recording yes, reading a mono or interleaved stereo yes, but playing back multitrack projects no.

You're missing something very subtle here. A true random access pattern refers to reading/writing a block at a time or a small stride at a time and then skipping to a different track, waiting for the right part of the track to get under the heads, then reading or writing another block or small stride, then repeating.

An audio workload doesn't do that unless your DAW and your OS are both horribly broken. A DAW preallocates a very large stride (usually measured in minutes of audio) of continuous blocks for a track when recording. As such, each individual audio track tends to be very nearly contiguous. Based on your comment, I'm assuming you already understand that.

The flaw in your reasoning is how you envision playback occurring. The DAW doesn't read one disk block from one track, skip to the next track and read a block, etc. It reads usually a couple of seconds worth of each track. It might easily read or write... say a megabyte at a time. Once you're past maybe a few kilobytes of stride length, it's hard for me to consider that a random access workload. Purely sequential, no, but random, also no.

BTW, if you're coming anywhere close to the limit of random read/write performance on a modern drive (<5 years old), either you are using an insane number of tracks (50+ @24/96) or there's something else causing a huge number of unnecessary seeks for tiny reads or writes (e.g. your OS isn't caching file metadata like it should). Either way I would tend to blame the DAW for not reading far enough ahead to account for latency. That really shouldn't happen. :) Even with pretty intricate edits, my drives are idle... I'd estimate about 80-90% of the time during 32-track playback.
 
dgatwood said:
You're missing something very subtle here.
Nope, I am not ;)

dgatwood said:
A true random access pattern refers to reading/writing a block at a time or a small stride at a time and then skipping to a different track, waiting for the right part of the track to get under the heads, then reading or writing another block or small stride, then repeating.
Yup. Agree with this definition.

dgatwood said:
An audio workload doesn't do that unless your DAW and your OS are both horribly broken.
This is where your logic is starting to run into trouble... read on.

dgatwood said:
A DAW preallocates a very large stride (usually measured in minutes of audio) of continuous blocks for a track when recording. As such, each individual audio track tends to be very nearly contiguous. Based on your comment, I'm assuming you already understand that.
Agreed. Emphasis on a track. However, this is only true if one assumes that the track in question is addressing only one actual audio file, which is almost never the case. Each separate take, even if it's on the same track will be a separate audio file which your DAW must then address.

dgatwood said:
The flaw in your reasoning is how you envision playback occurring. The DAW doesn't read one disk block from one track, skip to the next track and read a block, etc. It reads usually a couple of seconds worth of each track. It might easily read or write... say a megabyte at a time.
And the flaw in your reasoning is assuming that a computer is able to read or write a full megabyte at a time. It may appear to an end user that a computer does many things all at once, but this is far from what really goes on inside the computer. In reality, things inside a computer never happen "at once" or as you put it "at a time". The computer processes things in a more or less "round-robin" fasion. Computer will only process things "at once" in multi-threaded AND multiprocessor systems. However, I must emphasize that even this is done in very small chunks, we're talking 32-64bit chunks, depending on the internal data bus architecture of the processor.

Now, depending on how much RAM your computer has, a DAW will preload a good chunk of audio data resident on the tracks in RAM. However, this is where things get a bit more complicated...

Each audio "take" or recording that is resident in a track, will be a separate .wav or .aiff file as mentioned above. Every time you record something new to a given track, you are creating a new file with it's own name (different DAWs have different ways of identifying these, perhaps taking the name of the track and appending a number in sequencial order). So, it is not unusual for a single track to contain more than one audio file in a single project, which the project is accessing. You, as the end user have absolutely no control where exactly these files will be physically located on the disk. By luck they may be in adjacent blocks, but more than likely they will not be. Now compound this with multiple tracks each of which is accessing multiple actual files from the disk and things get more interesting. However this is still not a problem, because as you say, the computer will have at least some of these pre-loaded in RAM.

However, the trouble is that most DAWs will assume that you're going to read a given audio file in its entirety in a contiguous manner, which admittedly should be the case in most instances. However, now I am going to ask you to take off your pop/rock musician hat and put on your freaked-out electronic nutcase hat on, a la Aphex Twin, and imagine that you're insane enough not to use samplers, but do your sequencing directly using audio tracks in a DAW :D

And this is where you can easily push the limits of your HD even with 24-30 tracks. Now, imagine that you have say 4-5 tracks that access the same drum loop file. The reason you might have this file spread across multiple tracks can be many, for example you might want to isolate the hits containing the kicks on one track, snares on another, etc. You might also have some chunks from this loop on other tracks so you can apply different effects on them. Once you start doing this, you're forcing your DAW to skip around this audio file and play a bit from here, a bit from there, often times asking it to play a bunch of bits from discontiguous locations within the same file "all at once" (although as we now know that since things cannot happen simultaneously inside of a computer, it will have to read a little chunk here then a little chunk there and hopefully have enough time to shove all this mess into RAM to feed the CPU). Now imagine doing this to about 24 tracks that are accessing separate files totalling in excess of 100-120, at various points within a track (perhaps even performing crossfades on them), and you can easily see how you can get your DAW in trouble even if there is nothing fundamentally wrong with your computing environment and you have diligently defragmented your drives.

dgatwood said:
BTW, if you're coming anywhere close to the limit of random read/write performance on a modern drive (<5 years old), either you are using an insane number of tracks (50+ @24/96) or there's something else causing a huge number of unnecessary seeks for tiny reads or writes (e.g. your OS isn't caching file metadata like it should). Either way I would tend to blame the DAW for not reading far enough ahead to account for latency. That really shouldn't happen. :) Even with pretty intricate edits, my drives are idle... I'd estimate about 80-90% of the time during 32-track playback.
Addressed in previous paragraph.
 
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