So your not getting a permit huh? Think about this....

  • Thread starter Thread starter RICK FITZPATRICK
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RICK FITZPATRICK

RICK FITZPATRICK

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I've posted things here before about getting permits to build your rooms. And I've had people tell me it's thier house and they'll do as they please. :rolleyes: Too bad. I dislike posting stuff like this, but I feel it is important to let people know what they are up against.

For those of you who plan on building or enclosing NEW space in your home, or doing anything that requires a permit, WITHOUT actually getting a permit, I suggest you read this first. :(
( I've posted this on Johns site too. I think its that important.) BTW, this happened in my town.

http://philackland.com/Documents/Fire Safety Article - Code Violation.pdf

fitZ :eek:
 
Good article Rick.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I hear people say that all the time Fitz; on this site and others.
For the life of me, I simply cannot understand why ANYONE would not go through the proceedures to obtain a permit for construction or substantial remodel.
Its just insane not to.
Sometimes, stupidity does indeed prevail.
 
This case clearly goes above and beyond hanging a couple lights and framing off a garage door. These guys were idiots. :rolleyes:
 
Why, oh why, do you need a permit to shove dirt around? We need to level part of a slope, and build a retaining wall. I can see needing a permit for the retaining wall, but we were informed we needed a permit to move the dirt.

:confused:

Our contractor laughed when we told him. He said to just bulldoze it and move on. After a week no one would know. If permits were required solely to insure safety, and cost accordingly, great. But too often I am of the opinon that they are more of revenue stream than a safety measure.
 
Modifying the slope and grade of your lot outside your current survey is going to cost you when you get caught.

Your contractor luaghed cause it's you that's on the hook. :D

However, its pretty subjective to how much dirt is lanscaped and the grade of the lot ect ect.
 
Why, oh why, do you need a permit to shove dirt around?

I'll tell you why. In the case of MY house. I bought it last year. Cheap. Now I know why. 15 years ago the original builder carved out half of my lot, and in front of the other half he built a retainer wall(if you could call that piece of shit a retainer wall). Everything he carved out of the mountain side, INCLUDING organic material, he simply bulldozed into the other half, leveled it and proceeded to build an addition to the house with NO FUCKING PERMITS. But the real killer is my property is on a septic, which after he 1/2 filled the area behind the retainer, he poured 4" of gravel for a LEACHFIELD!!!! Not only that, he ran a 2" greywater line under all that crap, that emptys DIRECTLY into an adjacent creek,which flows down to a bog 1/2 mile down the road. Idiot. My house is at the end of a road, totally hidden by giant Oregon forest so no one saw him doing this shit. I wish I could kick this @%$@^*#$% in the ass, but he died. Within one year, that portion of the house sunk about 1 1/2". Not only that, he must have added a second floor, AFTER the first floor had already sunk about 2" in 20', because when I moved in, the first floor was slanted, but the second floor was level. Not anymore. AGAIN, no permits. FUCKING MORON. :mad: I just had the ground bored and analyzed by a landscape contractor. Cost $1300. They told me it is riddled with decayed organic material and there is NOTHING I can do about the ground undernieth the house except tear the addition down, dig it out and rebuild.
THATS FUCKING WHY!!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :mad: :eek:
Another thing, just because your contractor laughed and told you to go ahead and bulldoze it, IF you got caught, you could receive a stop work order, maybe be forced to dig it OUT, AND both of you COULD be charged with a misdemeaner. At least in my area. I don't know if your building on this area, and even if you aren't, if they require a permit, there is a REASON which probably is to make sure you don't do EXACTLY what the builder did on my property.

Let me tell you another one. My ex boss bought an old fixer upper house, and wanted to remodel it. As I am a draftsman, he had me start drawing up the remodel plans. He took the exterior "as is" dimensions, and I did the interior. When I laid out the existing plan, something was wrong with the dimensions. There was not enough room for FRAMING of the exterior walls.
I went back to double check. Ha! I peeled off some interior wallpaper. Low and behold :eek: ......there was NO FRAMING!! Simply 1x12's nailed to a plate on the bottom, and a 2x4 on edge at the top. AND this had a second story to boot!! Then they nailed asbestos shingles on the outside, and wallpapered the inside. Holy SHit. It's a wonder no one got killed. But thats not the half of it. He decided to tear it down and build new. Brought in a big dumpster, and hired a carpenter, who told my boss he was going to have to get a demo permit. He laughed and told him to demo it without a permit. He proceeded to tear off less than 8 linear ft of siding when a inspector showed up. The inspector asked to see the demo permit AND the asbestos ABATEMENT documents. Ha! When told they didn't have one, the inspector looked in the dumpster and saw the asbestos siding in there. BIG MISTAKE!! He called the DEP(Dept of Environmental Protection.)Cost my boss $2k in fines, PLUS the abatement fees to haul and environmentally dispose of the asbestos at a special plant 150 miles away. Cost.....$4200. Would have cost him a disposal fee of $150 at a local dump(special site), and the price of a permit. He argued with the DEP so they made him do the most expensive way of disposing it. What a moron. Permits are cheap. No permits can be a nightmare.
fitZ :(
 
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Another good reason for permits before "shoving some dirt around" is drainage. It is entirely possible that your neighbor’s yard drains across your yard. If you start fucking with the grade, you can alter (or destroy) those drainage paths. That could not only lead to flooding in your basement, but also in your neighbor’s basement.

Do it right, do it legal. Every time.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Check your local code--here you need a permit only if you are disturbing more than 2500 ft2, filling or cutting more than 18", or building a wall higher than 18".

Then there's this embassy they are building next to me, DIRECTLY on the shore of a major tributary. How do they get away with that stuff? All they have for erosion control is a silt fence, and if one of those hurricane leftovers visits DC . . . my oh my. Their site could be under 6 feet of water and I do not exaggerate one bit. The floodwalls at my building are 8 feet above their site.
 
Good article.

Yea, obtaining building permits can suck. But in pursuing one you're more likely to be consistently in code with your towns regulations, thereby covering your own ass should something ungodly happen.

Much better paying the fee and filling out some forms up front then dealing with it down the road - and unless you live there forever, you'll have to deal with it at some point, for better or worse.

-Krag
 
Rick,

Fantastic article. I have been (and will keep on) telling people this for years.

Folks - there's a whole lot of reasons for this....... not the least of which is the ideas that I hear normal intelligent people come up with that make me shudder knowing what I know....... death traps just waiting to be built.......

HangDawg said "This case clearly goes above and beyond hanging a couple lights and framing off a garage door.".....

But Dawg, if there's a fire and those "couple of lights" wern't permitted - your insurance company can abandon you - and God forbid there was a death....... all this even if it WAS a manufacturer's error..... ultimately - for doing it without a permit - you are still at fault.

Even a few simple lights and a few feet of wire can be enough to hang you...... and that even if your installation is perfect - material defects do exist.

As far as digging in your back yard goes........ hell - how about an unknown easement that the power company has for some 13,000 volt lines that run underground through your property? (these might be less than 18" in the ground and without warning tape.)

I've worked in a lot of states...... and every one of them has requirements that people contact Call Before You Dig (CBYD) before digging on even private property.

Most people don't even know that this service (generally free) even exists - much less that anything could exist on their property even if an easement doesn't show up in the records.

Nope folks......... there is no reason for anyone to try to save the cost of a permit.

Get your plans done - get the inspectors involved...... and do it right.........

Rod
 
I got a story for ya...

In our last home the basement was unfinished. Being the DIY type, my wife and I decided to complete the basement ourselves. We had never done construction but were hell bent to learn. We took our time, planned, and pulled ALL the necessary permits. We finished the basement, passed all our inspections, and enjoyed our new living space!

Now the good part...

When we went to sell our home we got an offer on the house. The inspector the buyer hired walked into the basement and made the balanket statement that there was no way our basement finishing conformed to code and that he doubted we had permitted the construction. Now, this pissed me off real bad becuase we are sticklers for detail and we built out our basement beautifully.

So, a simple call to the County and they faxed proof of passing all insoections to the potential buyer and the inspection company.

Luckily, for the inspector, we still sold our home to the buyer. Had the buyer backed out based on what the inspector said you can bet he would have been sued to the sum of our full asking price.

GET A PERMIT!
 
Hello Guys and thanks for the positive replys. I've been posting things like this here three year, and I bet people think I'm just a negative old fart :rolleyes: But you know what, I don't care. All I can do is point things out to help the people who don't understand the consequences. Personally I don't care what people do in their own homes, but as a member here I feel like someone has to say this stuff once in a while. The article is what prompted it this time, although it will probably be the last time I say anything in this regard again.
fitZ :)
 
Look most permits are revenue generators for your city and township. Plain and simple. Unless you are dealing with NEW constuction or adding say a FOURTEEN HUNDRED FUCKING DEGREE!!!!! furnace to your home then yeah, get a permit. However the main reason to get them in my opinion is to protect your ass legally, if say someone injures themselves on your property and you did'nt have a permit for whatever they injured themself on YOU are automatically FUCKED.
 
Be Loveless said:
Look most permits are revenue generators for your city and township. Plain and simple. Unless you are dealing with NEW constuction or adding say a FOURTEEN HUNDRED FUCKING DEGREE!!!!! furnace to your home then yeah, get a permit. However the main reason to get them in my opinion is to protect your ass legally, if say someone injures themselves on your property and you did'nt have a permit for whatever they injured themself on YOU are automatically FUCKED.

You're still getting it wrong.

The permitting process protects YOU.

Period.

It protects you from stupid, life-and-property endangering construction.

It protects YOU from loss under myriad circumstances.

It protects you from unscroupulous contractors that will take your money and leave you hanging.

If you have a mortgage on your home, consequently you have homeowner's insurance. Suppose you remodel your house, adding a couple bedrooms.

All on the sly.

And, unfortunately, your house burns down due to faulty wiring you installed in your remodel...........

Which of course was never inspected.

Congratulations!

You've just bought yourself a house!

Sorry, there are no financing options available to you other than cash up front right now, or court costs and foreclosure.

Thanks for playing!
 
I have to agree on this one...I have a friend (not very smart but a good guy). He finished his basment on his own...no permit. The intent was to sound proof it and turn it into a TV/intertainment area. Overall, it turned out rather nice but when I found out that he went cheap and used a recyled tire/rubber material as isolation material between where the walls meet the floor and in other places in the ceiling. I asked him if he researched the materials to find out if they would out gas or present a more serious situation if there was a fire. He has no idea. Now his wife is really freaked out. Can't say that I blame her.
 
Hey Sus! You took the words out of my mouth. I started to post a reply the other day, but I guess I've already said what I can. If they don't get it, then they don't get it. But the real reality to this stuff is how far up the ladder it goes. Check this out. UNFUCKINGBELIEVABLE :eek: :eek: :rolleyes: :( :mad:
http://www.skyscrapersafety.org/html/speaking_11192003sr.html
Tell me there isn't something wierd about the WTC thing. On second thought, I saved my reply just in case I got pissed enough :D Here it is.

However the main reason to get them in my opinion is to protect your ass legally,

No, the main reason is to protect people from idiots that violate the codes and kill people every year. Simple things like splice AC wires without a J-box, or use the wrong size wire or circuit breaker, or any number of stupid and downright dangerous things. Ask any fireman. The REAL reason is codes. Codes were written to protect people, because someone died from lack of them. If it weren't for codes, NO ONE would be safe in any building in America. Unscrupulous contractors do things all the time that are dangerous. For instance.

http://www.remodeling.hw.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=156&articleID=71551

http://www.warren-group.com/articles/codeviolations.html

Of course, homeowners little violations are simply a small example of the general attitude by the public that codes are of no consequence, and are treated the same as running a red light. If no authority sees it, who gets hurt? Maybe no one this time. However, thousands of accidents happen because of taking a chance.

But when this attitude escalates in proportion to the scale of possible death, then it becomes apparent, money is at the root of the problem. Greed and power trade lives of the public for gain. The WTC is a perfect example. Supposedly, the bolts used to fasten the "trusses" to the framework were downsized by the contractor. You won't find that info easily, and maybe not at all now. There are many pieces of the WTC collapse, that have been posted on the net, only to disappear within weeks. I'm no conspiracy buff, but I've read enough to REALLY make me wonder what the hell is going, especially since I found a website describing the same construction used on the World Trade Center twin towers, used on a building in Chicago. The author even showed pictures of the construction on not only the building in Chicago, but also the WTC. They were identical. But after the colllapse, official descriptions of the framing mechanisims by "official sources" were totally different. Check this out.
http://arizona.indymedia.org/print.php?id=6750
fitZ
 
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