Snare and vocal

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sixer2007

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Hey guys,

Sometimes I feel like things are working well right until I bring the vocals into a mix, and then I tend to lose my snare a bit in all the madness. Do you have any thoughts on how to keep those elements clear without losing too much of one or the other? I do mostly rock mixes.
I've found that I can get my snare back if I cut out some of the vocals with EQ, but because they both have so much mid range, the vocal starts to sound too thin. I visualize it as if I'm literally cutting a hole in the singer's head, and I don't like the result. It's become a bigger battle for me than low end stuff.
How do you guys manage that?

Thanks!
 
Have you tried reversing phase or polarity on the snare/vocal to see if that helps? You should be able to notch a slight cut in the snare around 2K and slight boost the same small notch in the vocals, I do this trick on my kick and bass so they play nicer with each other, just remember to keep the cuts/boosts small, under 6db for sure and keep the Q small-medium. I definately wouldn't use any eq cuts in the vocals to get the snare to come through because the vocals will move around in freq as the snare will be pretty constant.
 
sixer2007 said:
...I've found that I can get my snare back if I cut out some of the vocals with EQ, but because they both have so much mid range, the vocal starts to sound too thin. I visualize it as if I'm literally cutting a hole in the singer's head, and I don't like the result. It's become a bigger battle for me than low end stuff.
How do you guys manage that?
Thanks!
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Interesting I can't recal having to eq the voc to fit the snare in. (could be 'cause I seldom get into real high density stuff perhaps.
Even where they do overlap, it's usually 'pop and it's back out..

How low are you talking there to mess with the body of the vocal?
 
Thanks Pahtcub, I'll give some of that a try!

mixsit said:
Even where they do overlap, it's usually 'pop and it's back out..
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I'm not sure I understand that sentence, can you rephrase?

mixsit said:
How low are you talking there to mess with the body of the vocal?
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I guess I usually find a spot at somewhere around 900-1200, where I feel the meat of both are.

On professional records, it's simply amazing how clear the snare is. If you don't focus on the vocal, you can almost see the snare being hit in a room, and if you focus on the vocal, it's all there too. But for me, the vocal masks the snare. I mean, I can hear it, sure, but it's not with all its glory if you get what I mean.
 
Pahtcub said:
Have you tried reversing phase or polarity on the snare/vocal to see if that helps? .
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Just to address this. It would be impossible that it would make a difference. That's not how phase (or polarity) works.

I have to say that I've never encountered this problem. Now that I think of it, I can see how it could be an issue for whatever reason considering the vocals and the snare are usually the 2 loudest things in a rock mix. But they shouldn't really conflict or compete other than for volume.
 
If the vocal mic picked up snare bleed(which is entirely possible) then a phase issue is not unimaginable and as simple as flipping polarity is I'd go there first before eq
 
Pahtcub said:
If the vocal mic picked up snare bleed(which is entirely possible) then a phase issue is not unimaginable and as simple as flipping polarity is I'd go there first before eq
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True. Didn't think of that. Though, I'm guessing it would have to be some serious bleed.
 
sixer2007 said:
...I'm not sure I understand that sentence, can you rephrase?
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This..
.. it's simply amazing how clear the snare is. If you don't focus on the vocal, you can almost see the snare being hit in a room, and if you focus on the vocal, it's all there too. But for me, the vocal masks the snare. I mean, I can hear it, sure, but it's not with all its glory if you get what I mean.
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..plus I meant snare smacks' then their's space.. generally (never say never..) one doesn't mask the other (-for long at least..

I guess I usually find a spot at somewhere around 900-1200, where I feel the meat of both are.
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Gotcha.
Maybe this is a case where it's because the snare is doing 100+bpm?
 
Pahtcub said:
If the vocal mic picked up snare bleed(which is entirely possible) then a phase issue is not unimaginable and as simple as flipping polarity is I'd go there first before eq
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The vox were recorded like 6 weeks after the drums in a completely different space. Maybe a little headphone bleed, but no chance the snare is that big of a presence in there.

jimmys69 said:
Post the song. No way to even guess without a sample.
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Jimmy, i feel like it's somewhat of a constant struggle. I surely don't have the experience of the dudes making the records I love, But I just can seem to get anything near the clarity on the snare and vocals. However, after re-thinking all of this, there's probably more masking the snare than just the vocals. but because they both need to be so up front, and my guitars are typically wide, that's what I notice most.

What else do you guys find is a typical masker of the snare? Bass maybe? eash! haha

mixsit said:
Maybe this is a case where it's because the snare is doing 100+bpm?
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Idk how fast the snare itself is smacking, but the songs I do are usually somewhere between 135-170 ish. Sometimes quarters on the snare, sometimes eighths.
 
Ok, well that snare just is out of tune, and IMO, does not fit the song. It is too out front. I would cut some 500 drastically, use a transient plug to get the attack through, without stepping on the vocals. Though, I could be wrong.... :)
 
Side chain compression would also help. I just listened to the TEB link. That is quite a different animal. It sounds like a metal snare. Yours sounds like a wood shell, and again, not tuned well. Maybe enhance with a sample to save it.
 
Thanks for the input Jimmy. I bought Transient Monster a little bit back. I'll try it out on there and see where it gets me.

Just read your second post... Side chain it to what? The vocals?
yeah, good call. The TEB snare is definitely a metal snare and this one is wood.
 
Oops, I meant parallel compression. It has been a long day....

Send the snare to another track/group channel. Squash the s**t out of it there. Pull it up under the original track.

Transient Monster is a godsend. Give that a shot too. I find that a limiter is needed after it though, to control peaks.
 
Ah yeah, I thought that might have been what you meant ;)
There is some going on there already. It's on the Kick, snare and a bit of the toms. What I usually do is send those all to a bus pre fader, compress it a ton with Density MKII by boosty, and then just bring that whole bus up till I feel it right. I can try to make a dedicated channel for the snare, as well as transient monster. Limiting the peaks a touch is also a great idea.
 
I usually send snare to a group channel, before the P comp. Insert Monster, then send to the drum bus (parallel compression from there). This works if the snare already has good tone. The problem with a bad sounding snare, is that it still sounds bad in the overheads, which I would never put through the P comp.

You may need to resort to some enhancement with a trigger to save the track. That is what I would do anyway. But then again, I'm just some lazy dood with Trigger. lol.

PM sent
 
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