Slowly "fading" tuning ???what??

[Maddox]

Are there such a thing as frequencies responsible for the "musicality" of an instrument ? Can a A chord on a guitar stops sounding like an A if some specific frequencie is missing, in terms of equalizing ?

I'm relatively new at the art of mixing. I don't know what it is, but it seems that, whenever i'm mixing a song, as the hours go by, I gradually loose the hability to identify the musicality (eq-wise) of the song.

I don't have the proper words to describe what I means, so I'll try to describe the "symptoms":

When i woke up in the morning and revisit the work i had done the day before, it's like the song is missing some important properties:

It sounds much muddier than I remember, the bass range of instruments is weaker than i recall from before, and - and this is what i find to be the most disturbing - the instruments sounds a little off-key, EVEN THOUGHT THEY ARE NOT, and this gives me the impression that the arrangement is all "out-of-place", as if the guitar is playing one song, the bass is playing another, the voice sounds impossibly disconnected from everything else.

That is specially true with distorted guitar, that, at first, I find it sounds good, and it has the proper amount of distortion I'm aiming for, but the next day it will sound as if the highs of the distortion are really accentuated, and this makes the guitar sound to be closer to white noise (static, airy, or wathever is the word) than to full, distinguishable proper musical chords.

Then I re-arrange the song, and it sounds fine again, but the next day it lost it all again.

So I tought: maybe, when I use the eq, I'm cutting important frequencies that my ears get used to as the day goes by. I mean, maybe I'm cutting frequencies that contains the "musicality" of the instruments.

On their own - when soloed - the instruments sounds in tune, but together is like they get "sterile", - no pun intended with the word "stereo" - forming an unbalanced, weak mix.

I do take a 15 minutes break for every hour I work. What I fell is that I need better skills regarding frequencies recognition.

I don't quite understand the Fletcher-Munson Curve situation, yet, so I'm putting it in terms I understand.

I have some questions (a lot of them, actually, because I´m trying to cover all my bases regarding this lost of musicality I´m talking about). I'll try to keep it concise, though

1 - (Just repeting the question of the beggining)
Are there such a thing as frequencies responsible for the "musicality" of an instrument ? Can a A chord on a guitar stops sounding like an A if some specific frequencie is missing, in terms of equalizing ?

2 - If I boost, let's say the 250 -500Hz range of a guitar, should I cut the same freq range on every other instrument ? Or does this only applies to instruments that have some similar functions and properties, like Kick and Bass, or Voice and Strings ?

3 - If I shelve out the Upper Mid Range from the Bass and the Kick to make room for the guitars and voice, will I be compromising the sound of the kick and the bass ?

4 - I found myself using two, sometimes 3 equalizers on the chain in order to make an instrument blend better with the others. For instance, in the first equalizer on the chain of a guitar, I´ll shelve out some Bass Range so it doesn't get in the way of the bass. I also do some narrow cutting on some other freq so it doesn't get in the way of the snare, voice, etc. Then, I use a second Eq where I sweep the spectrum, find a frequencie range that I enjoy, and boost it little and wide, even if I cutted part of this frequency in the previous Eq. I have the impression that this second equing provides better control over frequencies, in a way that it prevents masking from overdoing. Am I at least a little right to think like that ? Do you guys do that (using two or more eq, maybe two or more compressor, also) ?

5 - I often find the meter of the Master Bus going above 0dB, and I suspect that the overall volume of a song can change drastically the nature of the problems to be fixed with mixing. Does that make sense, and if so, why ?

5a - Should I keep the overall volume of a mix below 0db, or, as long as it doesn't clip, it's fine ?

5b - Does the same rules for overall volume applies to the volume of each instrument alone ?

6 - Is it right to assume that I should:
a) always shelve out - if not cut entirely - the low end of high frequency instruments like Cymbals ?
b) always shelve out - if not cut entirely - the high end of low frequency instruments like Bass and Kick ?
c) always try to boost - a little and wide - the mid range of mid-frequency instruments, like guitars, piano and voices, although trying to prioritize different parts of the mid-range for every instruments, in order to prevent masking ?

Oh, I still have so many questions, but I'll stop it here.

Thanks, and sorry about the size of the post.

 

[diggy_dude]

Are there such a thing as frequencies responsible for the "musicality" of an instrument ? Can a A chord on a guitar stops sounding like an A if some specific frequencie is missing, in terms of equalizing ?

If you filter a waveform so that certain harmonics are predominant over the fundamental, you could potentially lose the distinct sense of pitch, yes.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

*Takes a deep breath*

Are there such a thing as frequencies responsible for the "musicality" of an instrument ? Can a A chord on a guitar stops sounding like an A if some specific frequencie is missing, in terms of equalizing ?

Aside from a sin wave...No. The overtones will clue you in on the note even if the fundamental is totally missing.

When i woke up in the morning and revisit the work i had done the day before, it's like the song is missing some important properties:

It sounds much muddier than I remember, the bass range of instruments is weaker than i recall from before, and - and this is what i find to be the most disturbing - the instruments sounds a little off-key, EVEN THOUGHT THEY ARE NOT, and this gives me the impression that the arrangement is all "out-of-place", as if the guitar is playing one song, the bass is playing another, the voice sounds impossibly disconnected from everything else.

How is your monitoring situation? Good room and speakers? Be sure to take at least a few days off between tracking and mixing as well.

So I tought: maybe, when I use the eq, I'm cutting important frequencies that my ears get used to as the day goes by. I mean, maybe I'm cutting frequencies that contains the "musicality" of the instruments.

This sounds much more like a problem with your room. You are likely sitting in a nasty standing wave.

On their own - when soloed - the instruments sounds in tune, but together is like they get "sterile", - no pun intended with the word "stereo" - forming an unbalanced, weak mix.

When you record, be sure you are listening to the entire song as you set your tones in the first place. This will help you come up with sounds that work well together. And remember, judge the guitar sound by what you hear in the monitors, not what you hear in the guitar amp.

I do take a 15 minutes break for every hour I work. What I fell is that I need better skills regarding frequencies recognition.

You might need to keep at it more. I couldn't get in a groove with that schedule. It's more like work 4 hours, 20 min break, work another 5, knock off for the day.

I don't quite understand the Fletcher-Munson Curve situation, yet, so I'm putting it in terms I understand.

You don't really need to understand it beyond "your mix needs to sound optimal at about 80 db SPL". Check it loud.

I have some questions (a lot of them, actually, because I´m trying to cover all my bases regarding this lost of musicality I´m talking about). I'll try to keep it concise, though

1 - (Just repeting the question of the beggining)
Are there such a thing as frequencies responsible for the "musicality" of an instrument ? Can a A chord on a guitar stops sounding like an A if some specific frequencie is missing, in terms of equalizing ?

No.

2 - If I boost, let's say the 250 -500Hz range of a guitar, should I cut the same freq range on every other instrument ? Or does this only applies to instruments that have some similar functions and properties, like Kick and Bass, or Voice and Strings ?

No times 10,000. Ideally you're not recording parts that conflict in the first place. And there is nothing that says the same frequency can't exist in multiple instruments anyway. Simply listen for conflict and remove it where it exists. Do no "formulaic" EQ.

3 - If I shelve out the Upper Mid Range from the Bass and the Kick to make room for the guitars ...

I'll stop you right there. Don't do that.

4 - I found myself using two, sometimes 3 equalizers on the chain in order to make an instrument blend better with the others...

If I'm EQing that much, something is wrong. Use mic placement, amp selection, and performance to make the instruments blend with each other. I you're done recording and things don't already blend, that is trouble.

5 - I often find the meter of the Master Bus going above 0dB, and I suspect that the overall volume of a song can change drastically the nature of the problems to be fixed with mixing. Does that make sense, and if so, why ?

5a - Should I keep the overall volume of a mix below 0db, or, as long as it doesn't clip, it's fine ?

5b - Does the same rules for overall volume applies to the volume of each instrument alone ?

With all of your faders at zero, the master buss should hit safely below zero. Record your initial tracks hovering near -18. Record everything after that at a volume that mixes properly with what is already recorded. It's like mixing with preamp gain knobs instead of faders.

6 - Is it right to assume that I should:
a) always shelve out - if not cut entirely - the low end of high frequency instruments like Cymbals ?
b) always shelve out - if not cut entirely - the high end of low frequency instruments like Bass and Kick ?
c) always try to boost - a little and wide - the mid range of mid-frequency instruments, like guitars, piano and voices, although trying to prioritize different parts of the mid-range for every instruments, in order to prevent masking ?

Emphatic no on all counts.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

If you filter a waveform so that certain harmonics are predominant over the fundamental, you could potentially lose the distinct sense of pitch, yes.

I can't imagine how extreme that filter would have to be. It would certainly never arise in "normal" mixing.

I mean, some bass guitars already have overtones more powerful than the fundamental right out of the cabinet. Our brains are amazingly good at hearing the fundamental, even when it is totally absent.

Not to say such a filter couldn't be done. I just don't think it could be done by accident.

 

[diggy_dude]

I can't imagine how extreme that filter would have to be. It would certainly never arise in "normal" mixing.

I mean, some bass guitars already have overtones more powerful than the fundamental right out of the cabinet. Our brains are amazingly good at hearing the fundamental, even when it is totally absent.

Not to say such a filter couldn't be done. I just don't think it could be done by accident.

Good point. It's more likely to happen in additive synthesis (e.g., by reducing the level of the fundamental) than in filtering natural sounds.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Let me sum this whole thing up so it doesn't get lost in a long post.

The musicality is missing because you are processing too hard at mix time. That is most likely because you are not selecting the proper sounds and arrangements at recording time.

Many of your problems sound like the result of bad monitoring.

 

[Maddox]

Hi, first of all, thanks for all your help.

Thanks Chibi Nappa for your answer and patience, and thanks everyone else, too.

Could you guys help me to clarify some points, please ?

How is your monitoring situation? Good room and speakers?

I'm on a tight budget. So I use a pair of Behringer MS16. I know is not the best choice, but for now, is all i have. I don't know if we can post links here, so if you just type "Behringer MS16" on Google, you'll find the behringer page for these monitors.

As for room situation, with the exception of vocals and acoustic guitar, all tracks are either midi (Reason) or in-line guitars. I use Sonar's Pantheon for acoustic ambience, plus some other vst when i think is proper.

I'm on a small non-squared room, but i don't know how to explain the acoustic situation.

Here's my first question:

How are those monitors (Behringer MS16), in terms of Mixing Monitoring ?
How does this kind of speakers can be harming to the mixing processs ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

With all of your faders at zero, the master buss should hit safely below zero. Record your initial tracks hovering near -18.

Now I'm gonna go really "newbie" on you guys:

Just so I can see I understood this, I'll do a step-by-step:

1 - I put the mic in front of the vocalist.
2 - I record him singing.
3 - After the singing is done, I solo the track with the recorded vocals and, reading from the Master Buss with faders at 0 dB, the levels should, at its peaks, be around -18dB.
4 - I should solo each track separately, and they too have to reach it's peak on the master Buss at around -18dB.
5 - All tracks together should never pass 0 dB

Did I get this right ?

I could apologize all day for the "newbie-basic-for dummies" aspect of this question. I hope you guys know that.
I Know it can be difficult for experienced members to deal with this kind of thing.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"your mix needs to sound optimal at about 80 db SPL". Check it loud.

Ok, I'm embarassed to say that I don't know how to verify this. I monitor things using the DAW meters,
and it's audio meters range from -90 dB to 0 dB. What should i use to monitor with the dB SPL scale ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have some other specific questions about Flat Response Monitors and Spectrum Analyzers, but I'll ask it later, on a new thread, so that maybe other people can benefit as well from organized topics.

I find it frustrating that sometimes the answer for a question regarding Compression, for instance, will be found by accident in a thread with a completely different topic.

Thank You

 

[EtherealEntity]

1 - I put the mic in front of the vocalist.
2 - I record him singing.
3 - After the singing is done, I solo the track with the recorded vocals and, reading from the Master Buss with faders at 0 dB, the levels should, at its peaks, be around -18dB.
4 - I should solo each track separately, and they too have to reach it's peak on the master Buss at around -18dB.
5 - All tracks together should never pass 0 dB

Did I get this right ?

You don't need to solo the track and read from the master bus. You can look at the tracks own meter with the fader at 0dB. Do you have a gain control on the equipment you are using to record? You should have the singer do a test and sing while you adjust this gain control, until it's around -18dB on your fader in your software. (Maybe you even have a meter on your recording hardware?) THEN you record, and the signal recorded will be -18dB in your DAW. No need for the soloing to check the master bus, like I said. But yes, all tracks together should never pass 0dB. The level you record at (in this example -18dB) will vary depending how many tracks you intend to have at the end. If it's a solo piano piece, record it just below 0dB as the individual channel will effectively be the master bus. If it's a small group, maybe -12dB will be good instead of -18dB.

Ok, I'm embarassed to say that I don't know how to verify this. I monitor things using the DAW meters,
and it's audio meters range from -90 dB to 0 dB. What should i use to monitor with the dB SPL scale ?

That is the actual acoustic volume that you are listenting at. For that you will need an SPL meter. Your listenting volume does not have relation to the levels in the DAW. You want your mix meter to be hovering around below 0dB when finished...but you could be LISTENTING anywhere between 0db and 130db SPL, depending on your speakers and their volume control. You may find this of interest:
http://harada-sound.com/sound/handbook/soundspl.gif

 

[Chibi Nappa]

You don't really need an SPL meter at this point in the game. For now, just know that the sound in the room while mixing should be loud at least some point during the mix process. If you get it to sound right "loud", then you aren't overcompensating for the bass (which is naturally rolled-off at low volume due to the way we hear).

Here's the catch: The sound has to be loud. At the same time, the meters have to be modest. That means you can't really do a "loud check" for the time being until you get some new speakers, 'cause those computer speakers you are using won't get up there.

And don't over think your tracking levels.
*First track at -18ish... Look at the track meter this one time.
*Every following track at whatever gain sounds mixed properly. No need to even look at meters.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Ehhh...

Let me simplify a bit. Find somebody who owns a large powerful stereo system. Grab a CD from the early 90's (Siamese Dream, Nevermind, August and Everything After, something like that). Make sure it is the original master. No reissues or greatest hits compilations or anything. Play the CD at a quiet volume.

Now slowly turn it up. As it gets louder, notice the spot where the "body" of the song suddenly jumps into existence. The sound goes from thin and trebbly to full and powerful. That volume is about 80 db SPL. Remember what that sounds like. That is where you want to check your mixes. If you mix lower, you artificially add that missing body creating a whole mess of problems.

Do at least a portion of your mixing on each song with volume that feels like that. Some people do all of their mixing at that level. Others pop up and down in level. Depends on what your ears like.

And again, you don't have to worry about this until you buy speakers that are able to do this. When you can afford it, it will make life immeasurably easier.

 

[Farview]

I'm on a small non-squared room, but i don't know how to explain the acoustic situation.

Do you have any bass traps in the corners or and absorbtion on the walls? If not, that is probably part of the problem.

How are those monitors (Behringer MS16), in terms of Mixing Monitoring ?

Not great, but it's what you have, so you will just have to learn how to work with them.

How does this kind of speakers can be harming to the mixing processs ?

If the speakers aren't letting you hear the mix accurately, you can't make good mix decisions because you don't really know what it sounds like. The same thing goes for the room. If you move the speakers to a different part of the room, they will sound different. If you havppen to be listening to them in a bad part of the room, you are screwed.

Just so I can see I understood this, I'll do a step-by-step:

1 - I put the mic in front of the vocalist.

Yes

2 - I record him singing.

Whoa! hold on there! You need to set the recording level first. There should be a way to meter your input levels in you DAW. Have the singer hold a loud sustained note and set the mic preamp so that that note sits around -18dbfs in the DAW.

3 - After the singing is done, I solo the track with the recorded vocals and, reading from the Master Buss with faders at 0 dB, the levels should, at its peaks, be around -18dB.

No, the -18db thing is more of an average, not a peak. As long as it doesn't hit 0dbfs, you are fine, but it should average around -18dbfs.

4 - I should solo each track separately, and they too have to reach it's peak on the master Buss at around -18dB.

Same as above. All the tracks, with their faders at 0, should be bouncing around half way up the meter.

5 - All tracks together should never pass 0 dB

Correct. Anything above that is distortion.

Ok, I'm embarassed to say that I don't know how to verify this. I monitor things using the DAW meters,
and it's audio meters range from -90 dB to 0 dB. What should i use to monitor with the dB SPL scale ?

db SPL is a measurement of sound pressure. It's the volume coming out of your speakers and has nothing to do with the meters in your DAW. You would need to go out and get a sound pressure meter from Radio Shack to measure this. It's the thing that they use to measure how loud a concert is...

One of the things that confuses everyone at first are all the different db scales. Db by itself doesn't mean anything. You have to know what kind of db's you are talking about.

DbFS is what you see in your computer, 0dbfs is the ceiling, you can't have signal above 0dbfs.

Db SPL measures sound pressure. 0db means no sound at all, 135db means your ears will start bleeding and you soon will hear no sound at all.

Dbu and dbv are voltage measurements, each with it's own different reference voltage.