Singing lesson for different genres...

  • Thread starter Thread starter James Argo
  • Start date Start date
James Argo

James Argo

Fancy Rock N' Roll
Do we have to learn different way to sing different genres ? Or they are just he same ? I mean is there any differences on Vocal training all over the world (wheter generally similiar). Something like :

If you wanna sing Rock, then this way... and you, hip hopers this way please... and you, Mariah Carey... try this... etc...etc...

Smellyfuzz, chessparov, modus, chris, anyone... your wisdom, please... :) I still have many more question in my head, but let it goes step by step.

Thanks
;)
Jaymz
 
The beauty and part of the frustration of getting singing advice is that you will have about as many opinions as you do techniques - whether those techniques are self-developed (ie. untrained) or generally accepted methods. (ie. trained)

The technique that I am learning (which is the one and only RIGHT way to sing.... but pretty much anyone who has studied formally believes that THEIRS is the only right way....) is called Bel Canto. Although the direct translation from Italian is "beautiful singing," it is a technique that many claim to use and teach and almost nobody really does. A friend of mine spent six months in Italy and could not find anyone who REALLY taught it. Another person I know here in Ontario has a student that comes to him from the South-Western USA, because she can't find a teacher near her.

Anyway... although a technique developed by opera singers for use in opera, there are singers in a variety of fields that use it successfully. The point of it all is to ensure longevity of the singing voice, and to ensure resonance and tone. In fact, with this technique, your voice actually gets stronger over the course of a night, a tour, etc. Nodes are virtually impossible.

To a large extent, the main difference in vocal performances from one genre to another is merely stylistic rather than technical. The voice is produced the same way, but the style of singing/style of song is what makes the difference. From there, to some degree, there is a "putting on" of sorts that can be done to make the delivery fit the style of song. This does not override the technique that you will use to produce the voice.

For a bit more info from someone other than me, check out www.brianvollmer.com . Brian is the person I was talking about in the second paragraph. He is the lead singer for Helix, a multi-platinum hard rock/heavy metal band who experienced a good deal of success in the mid '80's. You can hear him singing some operatic stuff on his personal site, and then hear the rock stuff at www.planethelix.com . Same guy - two very different results - same technique. I'm learning the same technique he uses, though I'm by no means as advanced as he is - though I'm studying with the guy who taught him. (a former tenor with the Metropolitan opera in NYC)

Chris
 
CHRIS;

The technique that I am learning (which is the one and only RIGHT way to sing.... but pretty much anyone who has studied formally believes that THEIRS is the only right way....) is called Bel Canto.
Click to expand...

The voice is produced the same way, but the style of singing/style of song is what makes the difference.
Click to expand...

BRAVO CHRIS !!!!!!

No way could I have explained it better !

Just like to add, When I was inquiring about lessons, the coach that I selected told me that he taught opera singers different then pop/rock singers.

What he really meant though, was that he would and did, aid in "stylizing" my voice the way I want.(KINDA)

I mean, I did not want to sound like an opera singer, I would have liked to sound like Robert Plant. Well my voice does not sound like Plant that is for sure, but I do not sound like an opera singer either.(well some people claim to hear a bit of the training in there.)

Any ways, my couch did train me slightly different though. You see most opera Tenors have a solid three octave range. It is silky & smooth sounding, much like a one stringed cello.

My voice on the other hand is developed like a piano, sharp hard steps from one note to the other.

PLUS, my range is far greater then the average opera singer, on a good day I'm just six or so steps(not notes) away from a full four. The high & low end is of course far from performers quality, but it does help the scale that lyes in between.

Opera singers spend far more time on getting there three octave range to sound perfect, flawless, every note as the one proceeding it is absolute.

Where I am far more of a sloppy harsher sound, for I concentrated on range at almost all cost.
The beauty of it all is that I have the same foundation of training as the very best opera singers, and that basic skills that I have develop from lessons have let me explore many type of manipulation of my voice, and not burn it out.


Sean
 
Three and a half octaves.... that's NOTHIN'!! Don't Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, and Whitney Houston all have, like, eight octaves??

... or is it just the music writers that don't have the foggiest idea, and lead the generally musically illiterate public even further down the garden trail than they already are??

hehehe

Chris
 
I have heard of that sort of thing about mariah carey and other "yorpers" (as my late grandfather referred to them)

I think that alot of her higher end which can be heard in some of her popular songs (which are the only ones i know by the way), is not really a singing voice, but a freakish resonant of the vocal chords - something which maybe cant be taught.

Even so, for arguments sake i will compare it to falsetto in saying that it is not real singing but a weird noise that proceeds from her body (which is enough to define singing for some people i suppose).

I say these things because upon hearing real opera women singers (i think you can back me up here smellyfuzz , cos your teacher was an opera singer woman i think i remember you saying), it is a completely different, smoother, more beautiful sound, as oppose to mariah weird high pitch (but controlled nonetheless) shriek.

So to answer you're question,
NO and YES

:) :)

yiordanaki
 
My vocal prof touched on the Mariah thing last week - she said there IS a female falsetto, sometimes called "white voice" - like the male falsetto, it's produced with a different set of vocal cords. Most women don't or can't use them, but it offers some freakishly high notes. In the dog frequencies. So I'm pretty sure that's what's going on with Mariah, and with Minnie Riperton before her...

Daf (gonna ask her about Bel Canto this week)
 
I was being facetious about the eight octaves. I just find it funny how many people belive that the human voice capable of that sort of range. They throw phrases like that around without really knowing what they mean. If you think about the math for a moment, 8 octaves x 12 semitones per octave = 96 keys on the piano. A full-sized piano keyboard only has 88 keys!!

If you consider that the guitar, from the lowest open sixth string, to the highest note (24th fret on mine) on the first string is four octaves. I don't believe even that is humanly possible.

Dafduc... when you ask about Bel Canto, make sure to ask about the technique as pertaining to the inhalation of the voice. If she doesn't know what I'm talking about, she's among the leagues of the misinformed about the true basis of this technique.

Chris

...
 
Last edited:
Dafduc... when you ask about Bel Canto, make sure to ask about the technique as pertaining to the inhalation of the voice. If she doesn't know what I'm talking about, she's among the leagues of the misinformed about the true basis of this technique.
Click to expand...

Sorry Chris,

I KNOW I was trained bel canto, I know nothing of inhalation of the voice.

Other then what you've explained of it.


Sean
 
Unfortunately, trying to communicate what essentially amounts to a "sensation" is difficult to do, and that's one of the reasons why most instructional books fall flat. At the time the Bel Canto technique was developed, a number of people tried to write about it, and knew that it was pretty much impossible to write a "how to" manual. I believe that it was Caruso (the most notable, perhaps, among many) who tried to describe the sensation of singing, and he often used phrases like "sing as if you were continuing to take in the breath" and things like that. What exactly did that mean? Granted, it is open to interpretation, as I suppose is any technique that doesn't have tangible indicators like "no, the third finger should play that note on the third string, fourth fret..."

Perhaps because of this potential vagueness of interpretation is where much of the disagreement as to what exactly Bel Canto involves comes from. The friend of mine who went right to Italy to learn the technique met a number of teachers who swore up and down that they taught Bel Canto - and I'm sure they genuinely believed that they did. Well.... he returned to Canada to continue his studies.

Physiologically, and from a physical sciences point of view, the technique as it has been taught to me makes a tonne of sense.

Chris
 
EXCELLENT ANSWER CHRIS.

AND I do not mean to discredit you.

I have greatly improved from lessons.

My teacher told me that he was teaching me Bel Canto.
(before I knew what this meant)

He was born in the US and grew up in Italy.

Came back to America in his middle teens.

Served in WW II, battling the Japanese.

After the war, studied at Juilliard.

When back to Italy, preformed & married.

Came back to America.

Did some live TV in the 50's.

He had a decent Opera Career through out the 50's, 60's, & 70's.

Started teaching at a local College in the late 70's here on LI.

Met my Mother at school.(she was attending)

Started teaching her private lessons.

In 1985 gave me my first lessons.( I was 18 years old )

Gave me once a week lessons, then increased to 2-3 times a week for a while.

Made me feel great by the end of each and every lesson he gave.

Professor Roberto Scarfao.

I hope all is well in San Diego.


Sean
 
ok because i beleive in sharing good ideas and techniques..ill share mine for GREAT VOCALS.....

FIRST :...you smoke for about 13 yrs/...now i know some of you cant wait 13 years...so you need to smoke say 30-40 a day for the next three weeks and it should work o.k. for now...you dont have much choice right?!?!....so light up...

SECOND:...you HAVE TO smoke DIRECTLY before your getting ready to track ...cue the tape...set your pre....get your mic at the right heighth...(now i smoke outside but im not sure it really matters)..

THIRDLY:....now AS SOON as your done...toss that bad boy and RUN up stairs to your "studio" ...ok so your saying "but jamal my studio isnt upstairs.."..ok IMPROVISE....sun a few laps around your trailer or whatever just make sure your out of breath when your done..

FOURTHLIKE:...if your lungs arent burning yet now is your chance ..to take about 4 deeeeeep breaths like where you have to cough when your done....

CINCO:...you are now ready to make magic......as a hedge on my golden throated bet i usually sing AS LOUD AND AS HIGH AS I CAN to make sure poeple KNOW your a great singer....i mean you dont get into the WWF by being reserved and wallflowerish...SO let the neighbors hear you baby ...i usually dont even START recording vocals till say....midnight maybe 1 a.m...

good luck !
 
i believe the world record is something like 6 octaves, by a woman who was an opera singer, though i can't recall her name.

i can get right at about 4 octaves on a good day-c2-c6, more or less (that's right, i think-c2 is two notes below the low e on a guitar, right?)-sometimes i flatten out pretty badly below that low e, though i think i'm getting a little stronger there. i rarely sing above g5, though (that a5 and above can sometimes be too much for me-like the highest notes in heart's magic man and queen's bohemian rhapsody). i can hit damned near any note i hear bein sung, though i don't listen to a lot of extremely high/low operatic vocals.

btw, does ANYONE, ANYWHERE know a real resource for finding legitimate bel canto teachers? i would love to have real training-i imagine i could seriously improve my longevity, solidify my range some, maybe even have those iffy notes fall into place.

btw, the top octave of that range i guess is technically falsetto, though it's sometimes hard to tell, since i have developed a rather smooth transition, and once i kick into the higher parts, the tone is roughly the same (i can do rolls in between, sweep through roughly the whole range without losing a note/breath/etc).
 
Depending on what "version" of Bel Canto you're looking for ;) you may or may not have a tough time. As I say, a lot of people SAY they use/teach Bel Canto, and genuinely believe that they do, but are presenting a modified, watered down version of the real thing. Contact your local University Music department or Opera company to start with, perhaps.

If you're looking for the Bel Canto that follows suggestions like "sing as if continuing to take in breath" (ie. the inhalation of the voice, as described by Caruso et al) then you'll have to look MUCH harder, though start in those same places. You'll find that as soon as you start asking about the inhalation of the voice, most people will think you're nuts - and granted, it sounds like an impossibility until you're trained to do it. I've mentioned in this same thread about a person I know who spent six months in Italy, the HOME of Bel Canto, and couldn't find anyone who taught this technique, though many said they did. Brian Vollmer has a student that studies with him from time to time from the South-Western USA (he's here in Ontario) because that student was unsuccessful finding a teacher any where near her.

I'm going to my lesson this evening, though. I'll try to remember to ask Ed (my teacher - was the youngest tenor ever to join the Met Opera) if he might know anyone in NC. Might be a long shot, but I'll ask. He did do a lot of touring through USA in his performing years, but that was a while ago.

Chris
 
well chris,

After all the stuff youve said about your singing i decided i had to listen to some of your stuff.

Downloaded
dont change your mind (acoustic)
and
Temporary insanity

Very nice - good range! relatively smooth too.

just a couple of questions -
How old are you?
How long have you been having lessons??
How long have you been learning the belcanto technique.?

Its odd and i hope neither of you take offense - but i can hear definite similarities in the sound of smellyfuzzes and your voice. sort of nasal (but not BAD nasal) - i mean its sounds like its coming from a different place than usual - but it sounds awesome with the higher notes.

just my opinion.

y
 
Cool!! Thanks for giving my stuff a listen, and for the positive feedback!

Actually, those recordings are over a year old. At that time, I had been taking lessons and studying the Bel Canto technique for about 3 and a half years. I've re-recorded two of those songs more recently, and they can be found at www.soundclick.com/nht . I think the difference is like night and day, now that I've been studying for five years. I'm re-doing the vocals for the acoustic version of DCYM very soon, as I know I can do much better again.

I started taking lessons when I was 28, and now I'm 33. From my early teens to my mid twenties, I would describe my voice as beyond terrible. It has taken me quite a lot to get where I am, and I am happy so far, but recognize that further study will make even more improvement. I am, however, still a little bit self-conscious about my singing voice.

Chris
 
zer0sig;
btw, does ANYONE, ANYWHERE know a real resource for finding legitimate bel canto teachers?
Click to expand...

There is none, to my knowledge but I have been out of the loop for a while.

What band are you on the web-site, I like to give a listen.

btw, the top octave of that range i guess is technically falsetto,
Click to expand...

Women have no falsetto, it's called high voice.

Singing for women is a far more natural act then it is for men.

yiordanaki,

Its odd and i hope neither of you take offense - but i can hear definite similarities in the sound of smellyfuzzes and your voice. sort of nasal (but not BAD nasal) - i mean its sounds like its coming from a different place than usual - but it sounds awesome with the higher notes.
Click to expand...

INTERESTING COMMENT.


Well I must admit something, I SUCK AT TRACKING.

Put me in a room with a guitar or band and I can do a fair to great job,
pitch near perfect all of the time, regardless of how I'm feeling physically.

Throw a pair of head phones on my head, put a big condenser in my face.

YUK. MIC FRIGHT ! BAD PITCH, WAY TO NASAL. LACK OF CONFIDENCE.

My wife, my hardest critic, hates the sound of me on tape.
I have never been happy with any recording of myself.
My recordings that I have, I want to bury my head in the sand when I hear them.
I do not think I have learned how to record vocals yet.
In a room, live, a different story.

I hope my best vocal representation is still yet to come.


Sean
 
I know what you mean about the tracking smelly. I have the same sorta problem - or maybe i just cant sing. Oh well..........


Chris ill check out your newer versions soon - Itll be interesting to see if there is a noticable difference.

dam i wish i had some money for lessons!

i hate being a poor uni student
 
YORKIE,


Do not fret, your on the right track.

BTW- A great singer does not necessarily mean a big range.

James Taylor has a great vox. No range.

Keep at it.


Sean
 
zer0sig said:
btw, does ANYONE, ANYWHERE know a real resource for finding legitimate bel canto teachers?
Click to expand...

Okay, I asked my instructor, and he said pretty much what I figured he would say. You will find many who SAY and genuinely believe that they do - local univeristies, opera companies, etc. As soon as you ask about the inhalation of the voice, they'll think you're nuts. Look long and hard, though, and you might find someone who lights up with glee knowing that you know about the technique. My instructor doesn't know anyone in that area that teaches it. All he was really able to offer was that (quoting only roughly) "You know that Brian has a couple of students that come up from Texas. They couldn't find ANYONE near them to teach them the technique." Brian is Brian Vollmer. He is best known as the vocalist for Helix (multi-platinum hard-rock band most popular in mid '80's), but also does operatic stuff and teaches Bel Canto. He is in London, Ontario. His personal website has been down, but you could reach him through the Helix website at www.planethelix.com .

Chris
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top